Volume 44 Number 58
                    Produced: Thu Sep  2 17:02:49 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Details of Kosher Labeling
         [David Maslow]
Ebay & Shabbos (3)
         [Jonathan Baker, Meir, Sammy Finkelman]
Fake Marriage -- Civil  Marriage
         [Alan Friedenberg]
A grammatical point
         [Ben Katz]
Kohanim and Poland
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Nusach for Rosh Hashono mincho and other matters
         [Perets Mett]
Prayer a Waste of Time?
         [Ben Katz]
Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin -- chumras
         [Carl Singer]
Receiving money for Dvar mitzvah on shabbos?
         [Daniel Lowinger]


From: David Maslow <maslowd@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:40:49 -0400
Subject: Details of Kosher Labeling

Steven White wrote in MJ 44:41:
> People dealing with extreme sensitivity to dairy products - Jewish or not -
> now understand that a Parve hechsher is a much better indicator of safety
> for them than the words "non-dairy" on the label.

I have mentioned this previously on the list, but it is relevant
again. In the New England Journal of Medicine, 324:976-979 (1991), a
paper was published indicating strong milk allergic reactions to Parve
(and non-dairy) products, with evidence of significant amounts of dairy
content shown using biochemical assays.  This was many years ago and I
do not believe the parve products tested still are marketed. In
addition, kashrut certifying agencies may be more sensitive to the issue
so it may no longer be a problem.

David E. Maslow, Ph.D.
Chief, Resources and Training Review Branch
National Cancer Institute


From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:32:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ebay & Shabbos

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
> >The wife of R' Gornish (a major local rav) was there every Saturday
> >evening after they bought their house, buying furniture.  As long as
> >*you* aren't writing anything, apparently it's fine.

> Was she there while it was still Shabbos?

Yes. Otherwise the anecdote wouldn't add anything.

I think R' Gornish wrote a book on business halacha, which doesn't asser
auctions on Shabbat/Yom Tov.

From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:30:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Ebay & Shabbos

><irich@...> (Joel Rich) quoted Jacob:
>      Rabbi Heinemann's heter was based on the fact that web
>      transactions on shabbat are not actaully registered on saturday
>      and thus there is no kinyan kesef until monday.  therefore, you
>      dont have mekach umemkar.  ratcheting up a bid on shabbat lacks
>      the requisite kinyan kesef.      Jacob Sasson
>and is someone keeping track since I would guess 24/7 transaction
>closing is not far off?

As far as Ebay goes, nothing happens when one wins an auction, except
that ebay or the seller sends an email to the buyer.  If the seller is
Jewish, he won't do so on Shabbes (unless it is automated, which might
be included in the special ebay software that volume sellers use.)

But no money is exchanged until the buyer actively makes payment.  I
don't know any way to automate this.  He has to go to the Paypal website
and click on a couple things. (Paypal doesn't have some of the problems
that afaict all the other methods do (unless one is a seller and leaves
a lot of money in the account, I'm told.)

As to online purchases by credit card, if it does go to 24/7, I think
there is a good chance that it will be processed within a couple minutes
of the transaction, and before Shabbes or Yontif starts.

NOW, deposits to your account on Friday may be credited to your account
immediately or by Saturday morning, I'm not sure which.  But I think
they are required by regulation to do this, although the credit is still
dependant on their collecting the money from the other bank.  So I think
only your bank has done something, and the other bank won't do anything
until some time after the Fed opens.  So has there been a kinyan kesef
or not if they do their part Friday night, but the other bank hasn't
sent the money until Monday?  I don't know.

And what if you deposit a check that is written on the same bank where
your account is?  Wouldn't they currently finalize that on Friday, some
time after the bank closes?

My bank won't give me a spare bank card, in case I mislay mine, so I'm
going to deposit more money in a second bank.  If one banks at a Jewish
bank, does he need to use a second bank to make Friday same-bank
deposits?  Of course if he has two banks, he would never have to deposit
a check in the same bank the check was written on.

<meirman@...>  Baltimore, MD, USA

From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 04 10:15:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Ebay & Shabbos

-> What is missing from the WSJ article (and way beyond the scope of the
-> article in a secular newspaper) is what happens on Yom Tov? Given
-> that Rabbi Heinemann allows e-commerce sites on Shabbos, since the
-> Fed is closed and the batching of transcations does not occur until
-> Monday, what about when the commerce happens on a weekday that is Yom
-> Tov? The same question happens with stock exchange transactionsetc...

If something like eBay is problem, then what about automatic dedcutiuons
and depositis into bank accounts that may occur on a Yom Tov?

the thing is, I think, you are not really picking the date, you don't
want the date - at most you want a withdrawal to take place only after
or on the same day as a deposit, you're not going to pay any attention
to this on Yom Tov and all bank transactions are reversible if in error.

I think , first of all, that machines are not required to observe
Shabbos, when tellinga non_Jew to do something it is only important that
the non-Jew not specifically be told to do it on Shabbos, and if the
non-Jew does something on Shabbos, he is doing it for *his*
cpmveneinece, not yours (the only problem - maybe - would be giving the
non-Jew not enough time outside of Shabbos or Yom Tov to do it, and
there are certain types of things you can even ask specifically,
although the halachos are a little complicated - and there are different
Halachos when the nnon-Jew does it only for aJew or for Jews and others.

Of the categories of work it is permitted to ask, I think preventing a
loss is one of them (as long as you avoid a specific command - but this
is talking about asking when it is now Shabbos) You can also ask to
prevent suffering (and cold is considered a problem for everyone - and
if the Poskim had had air conditioning at the time, they would have
included air-conditioning too) or make Shabbos more enjoyable or for
public benefit - this is why we can ask a non-Jew to turn on and off
lights etc in a shul if our normal preparations break down.

Talking about effective dates, I recall that there is a Gemorah
somewhere that deals with documents that were dated on the Tenth of
Thshreei (it wasn't the real date) but I do not remember more - what i
do remember is that carrying such a date was not a problem.

For their credit, B and H Photo (bhphotovideo.com, I've been told, shuts
down their ecommerce site on Shabbos and Yom Tov.


From: Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fake Marriage -- Civil  Marriage

>From Carl Singer:
>As to it's not being something an orthodox couple does -- it's
>something many orthodox couples do -- since they hold by the religious
>ceremony and not by the civil, they tend to get the civil license at a
>time / place convenient for them -- but usually not with the motives
>you state.

This was the motive my wife and I had when we had a civil ceremony in
Baltimore County, MD, 10 days before our real wedding in Pittsburgh.  We
found out that Pennsylvania required a blood test (and possibly a
physical exam, but I don't really remember).  We were trying to save
money to learn in Israel after our wedding, so we didn't want to spend
the $180.  We went to the county courthouse and were married.

>he brought in two non-Jewish* women clerks as witnesses (obviously not
>Aidim) and with a carefully worded question or two signed our marriage

Our clerk did not require witnesses, so it was just the three of us in
the room.  I obviously didn't have a wedding band, so my wife took off
her engagement ring, handed it to me, and I handed it back to her.  The
funniest part was that the clerk was reading a script, and he got to the
part about "if anyone objects to this wedding, let him speak now."
There were only the three of us in the room . . . and he paused at this
point for about 20 seconds before he went on.

We are one of three couples that we know of that had a civil ceremony.
It's more common than most people think.



From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:54:13 -0500
Subject: Re: A grammatical point

>From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
>       in order to avoid real berakhot levatalot.
>The expression really ought to be "berakhot levatala."

         In English when one uralizes a compound noun, only the part
that is relevant should be pluralized (eg mothers in law, not mother in
laws or mothers in laws).  However, I am not sure that this is the case
in Hebrew, or at least for rabbinic hebrew.  see for example batei
kenesiot (not batei keneset) in yehum purkan,.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:49:39 +0300
Subject: Kohanim and Poland

Would anyone know of any Piskei Halachah regarding whether Kohanim may
visit any/all/parts of the different extermination camps in Poland?

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:45:51 +0100
Subject: Nusach for Rosh Hashono mincho and other matters

From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
> Re the Ashkenaz Nusach (as in melody) for Rosh Hashana Mincha: what I
> am familiar with is to do the Shabbat Mincha melody for ashrei, uva
> l'tsion, chazi kaddish, avot, g'vurot, kedusha till yimloch, and to
> move in to the Yamim Noraim melody only from either yimloch or L'dor
> vador.
> Could M'viney Nusach please comment on this?

To which someone (whose name I forget unfortunately) gave a detailed
description of the correct nusach (=melodies used for davenen).

What he no doubt meant was the correct nusach in the western Ashkenazi
tradition. I am quite certain that Sefardim have different customs!

Moreover, it is clear from the Matei Efrayim (published about 200 years
ago) that the Eastern European was different too.

The Matei Efrayim (598) writes, as Mark Symons said, that the Shabbos
mincho nusach is used on Rosh Hashonoi from Ashrei onwards.

Perets Mett


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Prayer a Waste of Time?

         I remember once reading an interview with Rabbi Dr. Louis
Finkelstein of JTS and the interviewer asked him why he spent only 5% of
his time davening and 95% of his time learning and the response was:
because when daven I am talking to God but when I learn God is talking
to me.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:50:21 -0400
Subject: Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin -- chumras

> From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
>> Many hold by Rabbeinu Tam tefillin -- but let's say we have some who
>> hold by 3 different sets ....

>Nobody "holds" by Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin, AFAIAA. There are those who
>have a Minhag to put them on at the end of the service after taking off
>their Rashi Tefillin, but they do so without a B'rocho. Those who do put
>on RT Tefillin would no doubt consider themselves Yotzi [have fulfilled]
>the Mitzvah of Tefillin if they only put on Rashi Tefillin (for
>instance, their RT Tefillin were not to hand).
>Stephen Phillips

I believe that you're missing the point.  My posting was not on the
semantics of the word "hold."  As you no doubt know Rabbeinu Tam
Tefillin result from an uncertainty as to the sequence of the 4 shel
rosh parshas.  People who "hold" by Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin put on a 2nd
pair because of this uncertainty -- they hold by the necessity to put on
a second pair to avoid the possibility of not having put on tefillin
with the correct sequence.  Custom in certain communities is that one
doesn't put on Rabbeinu Tam until they are married.  Perhaps it's
another "gift" (along with the tallis and watch :) that the Kallah's
family provides.

The point is that if one were to put on a 3rd set of tefillin (let's say
as a result of deep study and a conclusion that there was yet another
possible correct sequence for the parshas) one would likely be
considered a nut case or a member of some cult, as opposed to more

Carl A. Singer
See my web site:  www.mo-b.net/cas


From: Daniel Lowinger <Daniel.Lowinger@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:07:59 +1000
Subject: Receiving money for Dvar mitzvah on shabbos?

Michael Mirsky stated that "Selling (or auctioning) aliyot or kibbudim
on Shabbat or Yom Tov is permissible because it's for Dvar Mitzva"

Why is it that we are allowed to do things that are seemingly not
allowed to be done on Shabbos just because it is a Dvar Mitzvah? An
example in this regard springs to mind:

My Rabbi once taught me a song that goes - "ain't goin to work on

Why is it then that the Rabbis, chazzanim, Balei Koreh and people making
kiddushim are the ones that actually do work on Saturday and benefit
monetarily from work performed?


End of Volume 44 Issue 58