Volume 44 Number 69
                    Produced: Wed Sep  8 22:00:34 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

17th Tammuz & weddings
         [Yehonatan & Randy Chipman]
Ari or Aryeh
         [Sam Saal]
Book of Quotes for Occasions
         [Aliza Berger]
Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India
         [Ezra HaLevi]
Contemporary Halakhic References to Women Dancing with a Sefer
         [Yael Levine]
eBay and Shabbos
         [Sammy Finkelman]
Falafel / Schwarma stand
         [Leah Aharoni]
Ma'aris ayin
         [David Charlap]
Singing Voice as part of Tefilah
         [Akiva Miller]
Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews


From: Yehonatan & Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:37:50 +0200
Subject: Re:  17th Tammuz & weddings

     Just for the record, I'd like to make a correction to a posting I
made some months ago dealing with whether or not weddings may be held on
the evening of 17th of Tammuz:

     I found a teshuva on this precise subject in R. Moshe Feinstein's
Iggerot Moshe, Orah Haayyim Vol. I, Responsum #168.  He states there
explicitly that a wedding may be held there, basing his argument first
of all on the statement of R. Eleazar ben Yaakov in Pesahim 2b that fast
days are an example of a day that is divided in the middle vis-a-vis its
halakhic status.  R Moshe then goes through the other sources,
concluding that the three weeks begin on the morning of the fast.

    He then adds an interesting caveat: he states that the heter only
applies when the fast of 17th of Tammuz is observed on that date.
Evidently, the question referred to a Saturday night wedding, which in
America of the 1950s or early '60s (today as well?) were quite common.
The 17th of Tammuz often falls on Shabbat and is postponed to Sunday.
In such a case, he emphasizes that this permission does not apply.

     Yehonatan Chipman


From: Sam Saal <ssaal@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 14:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ari or Aryeh

Once we had decided to name our son, we had some difficulty with
selectting the spelling: Ari (aleph resh yud) or Aryeh (aleph resh yud
heh). Both are used in the Torah. I asked several learned people and the
most we could find on the difference is that Aryeh is, at least now,
more literary. Indeed, I think both Yakov's and Moshe's blessings used
Aryeh.  But with every spike on a crown in the Torah having
significance, I cannot believe that there is no significance to the
extra heh.

Can any of you point me to a commentary that explains the difference in
the Torah's use of Ari versus Aryh? Note: I'm significantly less
interested in known differences found in Na'Ch...just the Torah.

Sam Saal


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:26:57 +0200
Subject: Book of Quotes for Occasions

I always get stuck when writing a greeting card for a simcha (occasion)
- I'd love to be able to write something other than the most common
quote. Is there a book of such quotes (Hebrew)? I tried the Internet and
could not find any such list.

Sincerely, Aliza
Aliza Berger, PhD - Director
English Editing: editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: statistics-help.com


From: Ezra HaLevi <Ezra@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 02:02:00 +0300
Subject: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

We have been told that there are God-fearing Jews who, while in India,
eat food from Jaine restaurants.

The Jaines are a religious sect that checks its lettuce like we do, so
to speak. They are extremely machmir (I'm talkin machmir) on tzar
ba'alei chayim (not hurting any living thing). They sweep the ground
before they walk, they check their lettuce, and they do not even eat
root vegetables like carrots of potatoes for fear that in the harvesting
they will rip some poor reincarnated worm in half (who may have been a
relative of theirs in a past life - is the concern, I believe).

Needless to say, they are vegan as well.

I am just hoping someone has investigated this prior to me. I imagine it
has been asked before somewhere and researched.

Are there any idolatry issues if the food is prepared for the sake of
fulfilling a pagan belief?

Is the ability for a Jew traversing India to find actual unintentionally
Kosher restaurants in the middle of the Far East perhaps one of the
"gifts" that Avraham Avinu gave Keturah's children before he sent them
off Eastward?

Thank you for your help,
Ezra HaLevi


From: Yael Levine <ylevine@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 18:58:42 +0200
Subject: Contemporary Halakhic References to Women Dancing with a Sefer

I am interested in being referred to contemporary halakhic teshuvot or
articles which discuss the permissibility of women dancing with a Sefer
Torah in general, and on Simhat Torah in particular. I have seen
reference to this issue in a responsum appearing towards the end of
"Rigshei Lev," in which it is not permitted.



From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 04 12:58:00 -0400
Subject: Re: eBay and Shabbos

From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
<irich@...> (Joel Rich) quoted Jacob:
>      Rabbi Heinemann's heter was based on the fact that web
>      transactions on shabbat are not actaully registered on saturday
>      and thus there is no kinyan kesef until monday.
-> As to online purchases by credit card, if it does go to 24/7, I think
-> there is a good chance that it will be processed within a couple
-> minutes of the transaction, and before Shabbes or Yontif starts.
-> NOW, deposits to your account on Friday may be credited to your
-> account immediately or by Saturday morning, I'm not sure which.

If in cash, or held against another account or a credit line, they are
credit. If not the earliest that could be is the next business day,
which is usually Monday. But some banks, like Citibank, have a policy of
making the money available on Saturday right after midnight, becaus if
withdrawn, it will be considered as if it had been withdrawn on Monday.

The smallest unit of time banking systems have is the day and all the
activity of all money eneteriong and leaving the bank that takes place
on that day is considered to take place at one instant, although it may
take some hours till accounts are reconciled.

Monday is usually the next business day after Friday, except this week
it will be Tuesday. Interest is calculated per calendar day, but money
can only enter or leave on a business day. When banks borrow money from
each other "overnight" (to balance accounts, including meeting reserve
requirements) they are borrowing from one day to the next. I they borrow
on Friday, they pay 3 days worth of interest and this week (Sept 3 to
Sept. 7) they will be paying four.

What Rabbi Heinemann was referring to was that actually nothing takes
place on Shabbos.

When banks are close at 3 P.M. (or 4 P.M) everything that takes place is
considerd to take place that day. On days banks are open to 7, they
generally shiut up shop for the day between 1 and 2 P.m. and everything
later is considere to take place the next business day. It is not
supposed to be possible to withdraw money as of Monday and deposit it as
of Friday so when it comes to withdrawals banks tend to somewhat
conservative and credit them as of the earlier day.


From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 22:55:58 +0200
Subject: Falafel / Schwarma stand

Carl Singers comments on the issue of Shwarma/falafel stands:

>1 - why go there -- are there other convenient choices or restaurants
>-- or is this the common practice everywhere.  Given a choice of two
>products one of which may be problematic and one of which is not ....
>(or as in the liquor posts -- might you simply abstain.)

As anyone familiar with the Israeli culture would tell you,
shwarma/falafel stands are THE most prevalent way for "grabbing
something to eat" and serve the same function as do the to hot dog
stands in NYC. In many places in Israel you'd be hard-pressed to find an
alternative place to eat lunch on the go.

>2 - what's the community standard (again, linking to other posts) -- if
>you eschew this shwarma place and proclaim that it's because "I don't
>like the way they handle the fleishigs near the salad" are you sending
>yourself to chumra-ville or yahara-ville .

There is no "community standard". The salad bars are a standard feature,
and the problem is "built-in". Unlike the establishments themselves, the
patrons have no obligations towards mashgichei kashrut, so there is no
way of knowing whether the person who ate there before you stuck the
humus spoon into his shwarma.

The issue is not exactly the talk of the town, though the problem is
prevalent in the overwhelming majority of such stands. In over 10 years
in Israel I have NEVER seen a shwarma/falafel stand with separate salad
bars for fleishigs and parve.

Leah Aharoni


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:39:22 -0400
Subject: Ma'aris ayin

Bernard Raab wrote:
> As many posters have already noted, it isn't "fine". But there are two
> possibilities here:
> 1. Rebbitzen Gornish walked to the auction site while it was still
> Shabbos in order to view and examine the items she may wish to bid on.
> Then, when bidding started it was after Shabbos.

After following this thread, it just occurred to me that this is a 
perfect example of why the laws of ma'aris ayin exist.

If you do something perfectly OK that on the surface looks fishy (like
attending an auction on Shabbos to place bids after Shabbos), other Jews
may see you and conclude that the seemingly-fishy activity is actually

This is the reason Jews should not (for example) walk into a McDonalds
restaurant in order to buy a soda or a bottle of water.  Another Jew may
see you there, not realize that you are only getting a drink, and
incorrectly conclude that the entire menu is OK.


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:27:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Singing Voice as part of Tefilah

Chana Luntz wrote <<< In fact, traditional litvishe/yeshivishe davening
does not involve any singing by either sex. And traditional chazzonus
style davening, while it involves extensive singing by the chazzan, does
not expect any singing by anybody else, male or female. >>> 

I do not dispute this, as I heard heard this from many sources. But I'd
like to know the reasons behind it.

Especially in shuls where there were no women (and hence no kol ishah
problem according to anyone) what is wrong with singing along?

I can't help but wonder ... In a situation where I am expected to sit
quietly and listen to the chazan sing -- is this supposed to inspire me?
How? It's not like the rabbi's speech touched one of my heartstrings;
the chazan is saying the same words all the time. When I can sing along,
the emphasis put on the words helps me to have more feeling, more
emotion, more kavana. But when I just listen to the chazan, I really
wonder if he's doing anything more for the crowd than entertaining them.

No, I don't doubt that his prayers are meaningful and heartfelt. I can
hear his emotion as he sings it! My question is what this is supposed to
do for/to the people who just listen.

Akiva Miller


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 04:52:04 EDT
Subject: Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews

Dear List:

I want to know about the halacha surrounding this, if there is ANYTHING
that allows this behavior and what breeds this behavior and how can we
as a community stop this behavior:

I protested against W. on W. 23rd St. away from the crowds on a private
piece of property at street level that gave me high visibility to those
on their way to the Bush Bash on Pier 60 on Sunday. The only people on
the street that day who spewed obscene invectives at me were people
wearing black velvet or suede yarmulkahs. When they hurled their
anglo-saxonisms from a passing vehicle at me, and identified me as a
Nazi female dog, I yelled back, "you are making a chillul Hashem."

The guy in the SUV took off when I did that, and the three walkers who
did essentially the same thing, and responded essentially the same way,
when my response to them was that they were making a chillul hashem in
Ellul, and they ought to figure things out.

They hid their faces and speeded up the pace. I couldn't chase them. I

They did not know I was Jewish or connected because A: I was wearing
pants and B: I wasn't wearing a sheitel or hat, My magen dovid was
tucked inside my T-shirt. What they didn't know was that though I was
against Bush, I also cannot tolerate Kerry and I am writing in for
Wesley Clark.

I discussed what happened with Rabbi Goldin from Edah, and he gave a
drash about it this shabbos. I also spoke to my friends at the Agudah,
and they are working on it. I was ignored by the RCA, the JCRC, and I
have a call into my connections at the OU.

Others "leaders" I called disawoved any responsibilty for this
interesting phenomenon. David Kranzler, the historian, blamed it on
"outside culture", but the outside culture, even the Republicans who
were obviously Republicans and disagreed with me, didn't disrespect me
the way these four men did--and three of them were with groups of six or
more, one of them included women.

None of the people from the "outside" culture disrespected me or used
foul language. I swear on my father's grave on Har Ha Zaysim, the only
people who did that to me in NYC that day were Orthodox Jewish men.
BTW, I was sitting with a woman who lost her son in Iraq six weeks ago,
and had to try to explain their ugly behavior to her, along with a
definition of Chillul Hashem......


End of Volume 44 Issue 69