Volume 44 Number 75
                    Produced: Sun Sep 12  0:09:31 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Book of Quotes for Occasions
         [Immanuel Burton]
Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India (3)
         [Dov Teichman, I. Balbin, Martin Stern]
Edah (was "reasons for a minyan")
Following the minhag of the husband
         [Leah Aharoni]
Is it ribbis?
         [Gershon Dubin]
Messianic musings
         [Matthew Pearlman]
         [Joel Rich]
Non-Denominational Prayer Rooms.
         [Immanuel Burton]
Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews (3)
         [Carl Singer, Bernard Raab, Martin Stern]
What is a language?
         [Perets Mett]


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:41:25 +0100
Subject: RE: Book of Quotes for Occasions

I have a copy of "The Encyclopaedia Of The Sayings Of The Jewish People"
by Nacy Nulman (published by Jason Aronson Inc, 1997, ISBN 0765759802).
The book is arranged by quotation source, from Tenach, through to
Talmud, liturgy and Rabbinic and folk sayings.

I've heard that Jason Aronson Inc is no longer in business (can anyone
confirm this?), but it may be possible to track down a second-hand copy
through the www.abebooks.com site.

Immanuel Burton


From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:44:03 EDT
Subject: Re: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

Even if all ingredients are kosher there may be the issue of Bishul Akum
to deal with for many foods. In turn the pots/pans may be forbidden.

Dov Teichman

From: I. Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:16:30 +1000
Subject: Re: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

> From: Ezra HaLevi <Ezra@...>
> We have been told that there are God-fearing Jews who, while in India,
> eat food from Jaine restaurants.

I'm not so Gd fearing, and I visit India at least twice a year. I have
taken everything with me and eaten nowhere.  I have discovered that
apart from the Chabad house in Pune, there is one in Mumbai. Perhaps the
Rabbi there, Rabbi Holtzberg, <chabadmumbai@...> will have a useful

> The Jaines are a religious sect that checks its lettuce like we do, so
> to speak. They are extremely machmir (I'm talkin machmir) on tzar
> ba'alei chayim (not hurting any living thing). They sweep the ground
> before they walk, they check their lettuce, and they do not even eat
> root vegetables like carrots of potatoes for fear that in the
> harvesting they will rip some poor reincarnated worm in half (who may
> have been a relative of theirs in a past life - is the concern, I
> believe).

There are other issues apart from the Bishul Akum that you could
possibly get around by convincing them that you needed to light the fire
(assuming you rely on the opinions that hold by this).

If I recall correctly, there have been cases where so called (non Jain)
outlets have been found to be using animal oil/fat when they thought
they were using pure vegetable oil. I don't know whether they produce
their own oils.

Another issue is that of Milk and Cholov Akum. If I recall, Rav Frank
Paskens that Milk from a Hindu Cow has no concern of Avoda Zora.  Jains
don't worship cows like Hindus anyway.  I think there is some discussion
about whether you should or should not consume Milk if you are a Jain.
Then there is the issue of the Restaurant proprietors. Like all
religions, there are Jains and there are Jains. How strict is the

> Are there any idolatry issues if the food is prepared for the sake of
> fulfilling a pagan belief?

I don't believe there is an issue here. There is no worship involved
from what I can ascertain in the preparation of food.

> Is the ability for a Jew traversing India to find actual
> unintentionally Kosher restaurants in the middle of the Far East
> perhaps one of the "gifts" that Avraham Avinu gave Keturah's children
> before he sent them off Eastward?

Ha! There is apparently also a Chabad house in Delhi, but I have never
had a response from anyone there ...

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:07:15 +0100
Subject: Re: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

There is still a problem with bishul akum if any food is cooked by
them. To avoid this, for Ashkenazim lighting the fire is sufficient but,
for Sephardim, it would be necessary to, at the very least, put the pot
of uncooked food on it. Incidentally this raises the question of how
Sephardim can eat at functions catered under Ashkenazi supervision
since, from my experience as a mashgiach, most employ non-Jewish cooks
and the only Jewish participation is to light the fires. Can any
Sephardi contributors explain?

> Is the ability for a Jew traversing India to find actual unintentionally
> Kosher restaurants in the middle of the Far East perhaps one of the
> "gifts" that Avraham Avinu gave Keturah's children before he sent them
> off Eastward?

This is utterly fanciful quite apart from the fact that Keturah's
children were sent away before Matan Torah, let alone the
crystallisation of our present way of keeping kosher.

Martin Stern


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:42:05 +0200
Subject: Edah (was "reasons for a minyan")

Perhaps an explanation particularly appropriate to this time of year:

The concept of "minyan" in the sense of the special status of ten is in
fact derived from the story of the spies (see Bavli Brachot 21b)

There is an "intrinsic" level of kedusha present when 10 Jews are
present (please don't start men vs women discussions for now),
irrespective of how wrong and/or misguided their actions are.

Shana Tova,
-- Yakir


From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 10:59:14 +0200
Subject: Following the minhag of the husband

In another tshuva (Igrot Moshe, Even Haezer, 2 siman 12) Rav Moshe
Feinstein, who was asked by a husband whether he could prevent his wife
from wearing a wig, explicitly stated that "a husband cannot impose his
humrot on his wife in what is her din. Since she acts according to
halakha, in accordance with the ruling of most poskim, ... he cannot
force her to be mahmir".

The question is what did Rav Moshe mean by "her din". Does this tshuva
apply only to "women's halakhot" such as tzniut and tahara, or to all
dinim practiced by the wife?

Leah Aharoni


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:12:02 GMT
Subject: Is it ribbis?

From: Yossi Berlin <yberlin@...>

> A somewhat simiilar question arises but, in this instance, no purchase
> of either a good or service is involved.  Specifically: a common feature
> at some synagogues is a building fund.  If the member pays the building
> fund immediately, his cost is only $1,000.  But if he elects to pay on a
> longer term, say 3 years, he is required to pay three installments of
> $400 each, totally $1,200 over the three years, in contrast to the
> "discounted" price of $1,000 if cash is forthcoming immediately.

Since no goods are sold, no "debt" is incurred as it would be in the
case of delayed payment (i.e., credit) on a sale.  It is hard, then, to
see where ribbis would be invoked.  Of course, CYLOR.



From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:11:52 +0100
Subject: Messianic musings

<chips@...> (sorry I don't know his/her real name) mused on how
previous generations may have heard things to the ends of the earth.  He
gives 2 possibilities

>   1: as an allegory, like "The Shot Heard Around the World" [ bobby
>   thompson's homerun :) ] 
>   2: it would be The Voice and since space and vocal strength is not a
>   Godly issue, it would be a miracle voice as like on Sinai. 

I have to say that I prefer the second approach as (presumably because I
come from the UK) I have never heard of bobby thompson.

While on the subject I have no idea what "W. on W." and "SUV" mean in
<FriedmanJ@...>'s recent post in #69.

[ The first W. means George W. Bush, the president of the US. The second
was part of the address where she was West 23rd Street. An SUV is a type
of car/van, a Sport Utility Vehicle. Mod.]



From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:37:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Minyan

> I always thought it was derived from Gen. 18:32, where G-d tells Avraham
> He will not destroy Sodom if it has even ten righteous inhabitants, but
> doesn't make this offer for any lower number.
> Mike Gerver

Sorry, no.- see Megilla 23 b

Joel Rich


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:19:04 +0100
Subject: Non-Denominational Prayer Rooms.

I recently discovered that London Heathrow Airport has a non-
denominational prayer room set aside for use by passengers.  I haven't
actually seen the room in question, but the leaflet I read said that it
has been set aside for prayers by people of all faiths, and therefore
contains no imagery, icons or religious symbols.

Given that one may not pray in a place where idol-worship is conducted,
and that the above-mentioned prayer room could very well be used by
members of a religion that is Halachially classified as idolatory, and
that those people may or may not set up a 'portable' idol while they are
praying, may one use such a non- denominational prayer room?

On previous occasions when I've had to daven in an airport, I've found
that next to one of the emergency exits to be a quiet place, as they are
usually set away from the main terminal concourse at the end of a short
corridor, and are not frequented.

Immanuel Burton.


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:41:48 -0400
Subject: Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews

Of course there's no halachic excuse -- here are a few thoughts about
what breeds this behavior:

Some members of certain sects treat outsiders with contempt and
disrespect. I don't know how to define "outsider" -- whether Jews who
are not members of that sect fall into that category.  But likely anyone
who doesn't dress like they do is treated as a class B citizen.

The above is not meant as an excuse -- just as an observation.

I recall a lecture that my wife has given to our children as they headed
off for college -- "if you're going to do something stupid or be some
place that you shouldn't be -- wear a baseball cap instead of a
yarmulke."  It turns out their behavior hasn't warranted wearing a
baseball cap.

BUT as a minority vulnerable to broad generalizations her's is good
advice.  Obviously, your foul mouth hecklers didn't lesson to their

Carl Singer

From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:46:35 -0400
Subject: Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews  

My personal opinion is that this is another consequence of the extreme
separation of the sexes in the haredi community. These young men yearn
to connect with women but have no acceptable way to do so. Their
behavior was a form of "flirting", but with a hostile overlay to cover
it up. My guess is they were reacting more to your gender and to your
"otherness" than to your message. Of course, the yeshivot should give
"mussar schmusin" on the subject, but I somehow doubt that this
particular issue would ever make the syllabus.

b'shalom--Bernie R.

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:22:20 +0100
Subject: Unacceptable behavior from "religious" Jews

Unfortunately, there are some bad apples in every crop but that does not
mean that the whole crop is rotten. What these young men did and said
was completely unbecoming of decent person let alone someone noticeably
Jewish.  That there were no non-Jews expressing similar views was
probably fortuitous, since such scum certainly do exist, and this
highlighted the disgusting behaviour but one has to put this event into
its proper perspective and do whatever one can to ensure it never is
repeated, as the writer has quite properly done.

Martin Stern


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:27:22 +0100
Subject: What is a language?

Frank Silbermann wrote:

> In general (though I am sure there are exceptions), a dialect becomes a
> language when it becomes the official tongue of a sovereign government
> that has an army.  At least, that's what a linguist once told me.

By that definition, Welsh is not a language, since there is no sovereign
Welsh Government with an army.

I guess language is too important to be left to linguists.

Perets Mett


End of Volume 44 Issue 75