Volume 44 Number 94
                    Produced: Fri Sep 24  6:04:34 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aleinu after Mincha
         [Stephen Phillips]
Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India
         [Martin Stern]
         [David Prins]
Following the minhagim of the husband
         [Akiva Miller]
Hallel on Yamim Noraim
         [Immanuel Burton]
Interesting Teimani (Yemenite) Customs
leDavid mizmor open or close
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Opening Of The Ark During Chazoras Ha'Shatz
Shmini Atsereth
         [Martin Stern]
Yemenite customs
         [Leah Aharoni]


From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:41:13 +0100
Subject: Re: Aleinu after Mincha

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> on 21/9/04 3:18 am, Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:
>> 15) Aleinu is not said after Minchah.
> This was also the custom in Germany when Minchah was followed
> immediately by Ma'ariv.

I also saw this many years ago in the main Ashkenazi Shul in

Stephen Phillips


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:44:46 +0100
Subject: Re: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

on 22/9/04 10:06 am, Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...> wrote:
> <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman) wrote:
>> Another issue to consider about these Jaine Indians is although they
>> claim to be very strict vegetarians, do gentiles have believability to
>> that effect? Some of the preparers of the food may not be as frum as we
>> think. I doubt that they have Ne'emanus to say "we guarantee that there
>> are no bugs or animal products in our food."
> I am sure that I am not reading this reply correctly, as it seems to be
> saying that the Jaine Indians are less likely to be as strict in keeping
> their own religion as we are in ours for no apparent reason except that
> they are gentiles. Could you please explain further what you really
> meant?

As far as halakhah is concerned, the statement of a non-Jew, or for that
matter a non-observant Jew, cannot be relied upon in matters of issur
vehetter (permitted and prohibited things) in the absence of
corroborating evidence. This applies only where they make a statement
that, for example, a certain food is kosher, in answer a direct question
from a Jew about it.  However, if they make such a statement without any
such 'prompting' in the course of general conversation (meisiach lefi
tumo) they can be believed. A Jew can steer the conversation along lines
that might elicit the information so long as he does not ask directly.

The point at issue is not whether the non-Jew is telling the truth but
whether we are permitted to rely on the statement of someone not bound
by (or not observant of) halakhah for our own religious requirements.

Martin Stern


From: David Prins <prins@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:25:27 +1000
Subject: Re: Coffee

The book Keeping Kosher in a non-Kosher World, written by my brother's
brother-in-law, is now available on-line at

The very first question in the book is "If there are no kosher
restaurants nearby, may I enter a non-kosher establishment to drink a
cup of coffee?"

The answer given is:

There are three problems:
1. The utensils may have been used for non-kosher drinks.
2. People may think you are consuming non-kosher food and drink (maris
3. Food cooked by a non-Jew (bishul akum) is forbidden.

Let us analyze these problems:

1. Utensils. The urn or percolator is probably used exclusively for this
one purpose; you need not be concerned that it may have been used for
anything else.(1)

Drink the coffee from a paper cup. If none is available, use a glass
cup; many Rabbinical authorities (e.g., Beis Yosef) hold that glass does
not absorb the taste of forbidden foods. Do not use a plastic or ceramic
cup or a metal spoon. However, if you used one by mistake, you may still
drink the coffee according to most opinions. When hot liquid is poured
from a pot on the fire into a cold cup, the liquid penetrates only a
very thin layer of the cup. Since the liquid in the cup has 60 times the
volume of this layer(2) the forbidden layer is nullified.

(However, you may not nullify the forbidden layer intentionally.)

Do not use a coffee machine; non-kosher hot drinks found in the same
machine probably go down the same pipe.

2. Maris ayin. The problem of maris ayin is more acute in a restaurant
than in a cafe, because people generally enter a restaurant to eat a
meal ,whereas they enter a cafe to buy beverages.

3. Bishul akum. The consensus of opinion is that the law of bishul akum
does not apply to coffee.(3)

Conclusion of the author: If there are no kosher establishments nearby,
you may drink coffee in a non-kosher cafe provided that you use a paper
or glass cup and do not use a metal spoon or a coffee machine.  

(1) Rama, Yoreh Deah 96:2
(2) Shach, Yoreh Deah 69:65
(3) Pri Chodosh; see Pischei Teshuvah, Yoreh Deah 114:1


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:57:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Following the minhagim of the husband

In MJ 44:79, Perets Mett wrote <<< For a married woman, the wishes of
her husband take precedence over kibud av (YD 240:17, Shakh s"k 19) >>>

In MJ 44:83, I wrote <<< I have seen this many times, but I've never
seen an explanation of why it should be so, or how it is derived from
the Torah. >>>

I found the source this past Shabbos. It is from Gemara Kiddushin 30b,
which quotes Vayikra (Leviticus) 19:3 -- "Ish imo v'aviv tira'u..."

Loosely translated, this means that "a man must respect his mother and
his father". The problem is that while "man", "his" and "his" are all in
the singular, the Torah uses a plural verb for "respect" -- "THEY must

The gemara there explains: "The pasuk only says 'man'; how do we know
that women are obligated? Because 'respect' is in the plural. So what do
we need 'man' for? To teach that a man is independently capable of doing
it, but a woman is not independently capable of doing it, because she is
subject to others... If divorced, they are equal."

(An interesting article on this topic, by Rav Moshe Taragin of Yeshivat
Har Etztion, is at http://tinyurl.com/55x8q)

Akiva Miller


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:05:29 +0100
Subject: RE: Hallel on Yamim Noraim

In Mail.Jewish v44n92 it was written:

> As to the related more general questions e.g. is there a Mitzva of
> Simchat Yom Tov (Joy of the HolyDay) on R.H. ?, is it
> permissible/preferable to fast on R.H. ?, what aspects of Yom Tov
> apply to Y.K. ?  etc, there is a wide range of answers and opinions.

I believe that Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur differ from Pesach, Shavuos
and Succos in that they are not "chaggim", i.e. we don't say "be'yom
chag ha'zikaron ha'zeh".  I would imagine that a chag is a Festival on
which a chaggigah offering is brought, hence the name "chag".

There is an obligation to rejoice on the chaggim, as given by the verse
"ve'somachto be'chaggechoh" (you shall rejoice on your Festivals).  I
remember being taught that the often-cited dictum of "ain simchah elloh
be'basser ve'yayin" (there is no joy other than with meat and wine)
refers to the meat of the chaggigah offering, and so the command to
rejoice in the Festivals only applies to ones on which a chaggigah is
brought, i.e. Pesach, Shavuos and Succos.

Immanuel Burton.


From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 02:43:02 -0400
Subject: Interesting Teimani (Yemenite) Customs

>From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
> there is a section which lists Teimani (Yemenite) customs which
>are worthy of note. 
>1) The Torah reading is followed verse by verse by the Targum
>translation, except for 21 specific verses which are not translated
>(which ones are not specified in this list).

Are you saying that these verses are not read from the Targum during the
Torah reading, or that the Targum itself doesn't include translations
for them?

<meirman@...>  Baltimore, MD, USA


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:48:11 +0200 (IST)
Subject: leDavid mizmor open or close

See the Sefardi mahzorim - before the last Kaddish of arvit & musaf of
Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur, one says leDavid mizmor and a prayer for
parnasa, the heichal (ark) is opened. The opening is auctioned for a
large sum of money, as a segula for a good year of parnasa. I never
found a source for the segula, the joke is that it is a segula for the
beit keneset budget. Even Kaf Hahaim, (#582/17), writes that one should
say the mizmor, no mention of opening the heichal.


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:03:52 EDT
Subject: Opening Of The Ark During Chazoras Ha'Shatz

>From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
>At the Shul which I went to this Rosh Hashanah (Hendon United Synagogue,
>Raleigh Close, London, UK), the Ark was opened for the phrases
>"Zochraynu le'chaim" and "Mi chomochoh av ho'rachamim" in the Reader's
>repetition.  Has anyone seen this done anywhere else? 

I don't have very specific info to offer in response, but I will make
two general comments re the opening of the ark (aron kodesh) during

I recall reading in a book on the high holiday prayers by Rabbi Dr.
Jeffrey Cohen of the UK that it is a device / tactic used to focus
attention on certain points in the / prayers.

Additionally I would like to note what I saw in the luach of minhogim of
bnei Ashkenaz that I recently posted about. It says there that in
shacharis and mussaf of rosh hashonoh and all the tefillos of yom
hakippurim the aron hakodesh remains open during chazoras hashatz, with
the exception of during kedushoh and birkas cohanim, adding in
parentheses 'unlike the instructions of later machzorim to increase the
numbers of openings and closings'. It goes on to say that their custom
is that a mispalleil is given the honor of opening it for the beginning
of chazoras hashatz, closing it before kedushoh, opening it for lidor
vodor.......right after kedushoh, a cohen closes it at the beginning of
'ritzei', opens it after birkas cohanim and closes it before kaddish

So perhaps the many openings and closings practiced in some places is a
relatively new development.



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:15:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Shmini Atsereth

on 22/9/04 10:06 am, Perets Mett <p.mett@...> wrote:

> Martin Stern wrote:
>> I remember being there many years ago on Succot and finding it rather
>> odd.  This was compounded by having Shemini Atseret and Simchat Torah
>> which really seemed a contradiction in terms of their different moods:
>> Hakafot followed by Yizkor and Geshem.
> Well, I don't think that Yizkor was said on Shmini Atsereth - either in
> Erets Yisroel or in Chuts Lo-orets - during the Middle Ages. It is a
> more recent custom.

Absolutely correct but I was referring to current Israeli practice.

> And (Martin can correct me if I am wrong) Yizkor is not said at all on
> Sholosh Regolim according the German custom, is it?  {Don't they have
> Matnas Yad instead?]

There were two minhagim current in Germany divided approximately by the
River Elbe known as Minhag Ashkenaz, in the south and west, and Minhag
Polen, in the north and east, the latter being approximately the same as
that current in Eastern Europe. Apart from the Alsace, Switzerland and
Holland, and some emigre communities such as in Washington Heights, MA
is no longer widely used. The minhag of Frankfurt on Main was basically
MA but had several local variations, the most striking of which was that
on Yom Kippur they omitted the section at the end of Ki anu amekha "Anu
azei fanim "!

The English minhag is explicitly based on MP as mentioned in the
foundation document of the London Great Synagogue. Within each minhag
there were numerous local variations especially regarding selichot. For
a fuller description the introduction to the critical edition of the
machzor by Daniel Goldschmidt is an excellent source.

The differences between the two, apart from piyutim and selichot, were
fairly minor and one of them was, as Perets says, was that MA replaced
Yizkor with Matnat Yad. Others which spring to mind (in random order)

1 MA does not say Ein Kamokha and Av Harachamim before taking out the
Sefer Torah on shabbat

2 MA has Sim Shalom for Shabbat minchah, MP has Shalom Rav

3 MA omits several paragraphs in Veyiten lekha

4 The order of Avinu Malkeinu and Al Cheit in Viddui differ

5 MA said the complete kabbalat shabbat from Lekhu neranana when Yom Tov
fell on shabbat but MP started mizmor shir leyom hashabbat

6 MA says Birkhot HaTorah before Korbanot, MP before Birkhot HaShachar
(neither says the Parashat Ketoret etc.)

There are probably a few others which I have forgotten but I think this
shows how minor the difference were.

Martin Stern  


From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:03:03 -0700
Subject: Yemenite customs

I asked my Yemenite husband about some of the minhagim mentioned by
Shmuel Himelstein.

- 21 psukim skipped in targum include maase Reuven and Bilha and some of
the klalot (curses).

- Chazarat hashatz in Rosh Hashana musaf - During this past Rosh Hashana
one of the shuls in my in-laws' community skipped hazarat hashatz and
the other ones did not. Their primary consideration was finishing the
davening before midday so people would not fast on a yom tov (since many
people refrain from eating before tkiyot shofar).

- Prayer nusach - Yemenites have two different nusachim which are VASTLY
different from each other. Therefore, I think it is impossible to
summarize their minhagim in davening in a few short sentences.

Leah Aharoni


End of Volume 44 Issue 94