Volume 44 Number 96
                    Produced: Sun Sep 26  6:25:54 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baltimore info, please?
         [Rise Goldstein]
Bishul on Shabbat
         [Martin Stern]
Eruv Tavshilin
         [Matthew Pearlman]
Genetic Counselors/Counseling & Halachah
Hallel on Yamim Noraim
Haskama question
         [Paul Ginsburg]
         [Perets Mett]
Partial Following of P'sak
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Siyum on a Sefer of Tanakh
         [Ben Katz]
Tanach chapter divisions (2)
         [Tzvi Stein, Martin Stern]
Tefillin and Karaites (3)
         [Ben Katz, Shimon Lebowitz, Deborah Wenger]
Yemenite customs
         [Mike Gerver]


From: Rise Goldstein <rbgoldstein@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:43:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Baltimore info, please?

I may be relocating to the Baltimore area in the next few months.  I've
certainly gleaned plenty of "objective" data from web sites about the
abundance of Jewish resources, but these data don't necessarily speak
fully to the lived, personal experience of observant life there.  I
would therefore be hugely appreciative if list members from Baltimore
who are willing to share their experiences would e-mail me privately.

Thanks in advance and gemar tov to all--

Rise Goldstein (<rbgoldstein@...>)
Los Angeles, CA


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:55:00 +0100
Subject: Re: Bishul on Shabbat

on 22/9/04 10:34 am,  Leah Aharoni <leah25@...> wrote:

>> From Martin Stern:
>> Without querying the halachic propriety of preferring to dip
>> the kli sheini into the kli rishon.
> This story sounds a bit strange to me since AFAIK one would not be able
> to return the urn cover after dipping a cup into a kli rishon. This
> halakha applies to food that is not completely cooked (or if there is a
> safek). Since the temperature of water in the urn fluctuates, I was
> under the impression that the hot water urn also falls under this
> category.

The urn in question was merely a large container with a tap put on the
stove and brought to the boil, the temperature of water does not
fluctuate though it might reduce slightly. I presume that in the USA
more sophisticated versions are used which seems to have given rise to
some confusion. Since the water had been brought to the boil and was
well above yad soledet bo, there is no problem of returning the lid.

The problem to which I was alluding was that the cup may become so hot
that it ceases to be considered a kli sheini any more but takes on the
status of a kli rishon. Thus the water could not then be poured directly
but first be put into yet another cup before making the coffee.

Another example of Bismark's comment that the USA and the UK are two
nations divided by a common language!

Martin Stern


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:12:41 +0100
Subject: Eruv Tavshilin

Batya Medad said in passing "This year especially, as with erev
tavshilin we could cook for Shabbat but not for Friday."

I am not entirely sure I understood this correctly, but the halakha
(Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 527:13) is that even on a two day Yom Tov,
an eruv only allows you to cook from Friday to Shabbat, not from


[Similar response sent in by Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>. Mod]


From: Anonymous
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:16:38
Subject: Genetic Counselors/Counseling & Halachah

Does anyone see a halachic (or other) problem with practicing as a
genetic counselor in North America?


From: <chips@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:33:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Hallel on Yamim Noraim

> To the best of my knowledge, it was universally accepted that Hallel is
> not said on RH & YK.
> This is based on the Midrash ( Masechet Rosh HaShana 32b and elsewhere):
> The administering angels asked G-d: "why don't Israel say Hallel before You 
> on R.H. and Y.K. ?".
> He answered them: "Is it conceivable that the King sits on the throne of 
> Justice with the books of the living and the dead open before Him, and 
> Israel would recite Hallel ?"

This just begs the question, why is it not conceivable? What is the
issue with Hallel ?


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:28:48 -0400
Subject: Haskama question

I recently found out that the sefer "Shaar Hatfilah" by Rabbi Chaim of
Chernovitz has the haskama of the Degel Machaneh Ephraim.  Does anyone
know of other seforim which have the Degel's haskama? 

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:40:18 +0100
Subject: Kidush

Martin Stern wrote:

> Surely Mr A's minhag for individual kiddush does not mean that every
> individual must make kiddush separately, only that they may do so if
> they wish, otherwise women and unmarried adult children (i.e. post
> bar/bat mitsvah) would do so regularly which is, as far as I am aware,
> not the custom in such families.

It is certainly the custom in our family! Our boys all make their own
Kiddush from barmitsvo onwards.
And I am sure we are not the only family to have this custom

Gmar Chasimo Toivo
Perets Mett


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:09:59 -0400
Subject: Partial Following of P'sak

>(2) Even though people "hold" by Rabbi X or Rabbi Y (Rashi, Rambam,
>Rabbeinu Tam, the Mattes Efraim, the Gra) it turns out that in many
>instances they only hold on certain issues and turn either a deaf ear
>or blind eye to these same Poskim on other topics.  .... and there's
>always some explanation

That is exactly my question- Why?  How can one "hold" of someone
selectively, isn't that prcisely what Chazal forbid when they said
"Mikulei Bais Shammai and U'michumrei bais Hillel" (or words to that

I know of an analogous case, where "most" black-hat orthodox "hold" like
Reb Moshe Feinstein re everything including controversial positions like
eiruv., but eat veal and use Shabbat timers on their a/c, both of which
he forbid.  I've been looking for an explanation of that for a long
time, too.

I am confident that there is an explanation, I'd just like to know what
it is.

G'mar Tov.
Yossi Ginzberg


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:43:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Siyum on a Sefer of Tanakh

>From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
>     Has anyone ever seen a text for a Siyum on a sefer of Tanakh learned
>with meforshim, as required by Rav Moshe Feinstein?  What about the
>Kaddish Derabbanan?

         I was pleased to see Rabbi Dr. Frimer's response, as I have made 
similar modifications when I have made a siyum on a book of Nach.  A text 
has also been published by Rabbi Gavreal Bechhoffer (Rosh Kollel in Monsie, 
former Chicagoan whom I had the zechut of knowing) at the end of his 
commentary on Shmuel.

[Note: R. Bechhoffer commentary on Shmuel is available on-line. See:
and the link is available there. The format is in Davkawriter format.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:55:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Tanach chapter divisions

No one seems to have gotten the point of the original question.

The King James Version and our Hebrew Tanach have *different* chapter
divisions in some place.  How does one explain that, if we take into
account that the Tanach chapter divisions are of Christian origin?  Does
it mean that there were 2 different Christian chapter divisions?

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:45:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Tanach chapter divisions

on 23/9/04 12:55 am, Tzvi Stein at <Tzvi.Stein@...> wrote:
[See posting above]

In our Tanakh there are only divisions into parshiot, which are quite
different from chapters, and we never numbered pesukim within them. In
recent years some editions have introduced chapters because the original
ones are based on Christian theological concepts but, as far as I am
aware, we did not originally have chapter divisions as such and only
adopted them because we were forced to use them in the mediaeval
disputations. If this is not what he has in mind, perhaps Tsvi could
give examples.

Martin Stern


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:39:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Tefillin and Karaites

>From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
>on 21/9/04 2:13 am, Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...> wrote:
> > 2.  To the best of my knowledge, Karaites (and Saducees) did not
> > wear tefillin.
>While not much is known about Sadducee practice, the Karaites did use
>tefillin but wore the shel rosh literally between their eyes which is
>the basis for our particular care to place them above the hairline (or
>former one for those no longer so blessed). I do not know what parshiot
>they contained but I would be surprised if they were any different from

         To the best of my knowledge Mr. Stern is not correct.  See
Nemoy's book on Karaism.  I have also discussed this matter personally
with the Karaite Chacham of the shul in the Old City of Jerusalem.
There is also a Karaite website (Karaite Korner) which discusses these
and other issues.

         BTW, the Talmud does record "discussions" with Saducees about
wearing tefillin between the eyes.  As far as is known these are
polemics against literal readings of the Torah, and not historically
accurate.  And, as pointed out by Aryeh Kaplan, "beyn eyneycham" can't
mean lit. between your eyes because the identical phrase is used in
Devarim 14 about not shaving the hair "between the eyes" as a sign of
mourning; clearly "between your eyes" was an expression for the scalp
line on one's forehead.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 01:27:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Tefillin and Karaites

Martin Stern <md.stern@...> said:
> While not much is known about Sadducee practice, the Karaites did use
> tefillin but wore the shel rosh literally between their eyes 

I saw a first hand dissenting opinion at

> Author: Josiah 
> Date:   08-01-04 17:13
> Avraham asked:
> <<I also have a few questions. As I understand it, Karaites used to (if
> not still today) wear their tefillin literally between their eyes. Am I
> mistaken? If not, then do you take other verses such as eye for an eye
> literally as well? And how do you know what to put in your tefillin, or
> what to put in mezuzot - as well as where to place them?>>
> Karaites, such as myself, do not view Tefillin as Biblical according to
> the p'shat.

Also, see a long discussion of why Karaites take it as a metaphor at:

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp

From: Deborah Wenger <deb.wenger@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Tefillin and Karaites

FWIW, in doing research for something completely different, I stumbled
across a Website for the "World Karaite Movement" based in
Jerusalem. This site claims that Karaites never wore tefillin, and that
the literal placement between the eyes is a "myth." They say:

"The Biblical commandment which the Rabbis interpret to refer to
Tefillin (Phylacteries) is taken by the Karaites as a metaphor which
emphasizes the importance of remembering and cherishing the Torah."

The full text of their take on tefillin can be found at:

G'mar chatima tova,
Deborah Wenger


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:39:48 EDT
Subject: Yemenite customs

Nathan Lamm, quoted Shmuel Himmelstein, writes, in v44n91,

      "9) On Rosh Hashanah Musaf, there is no repetition of the Amidah
      by the Chazan. Instead, the Chazan says the prayer aloud, and all
      say it along with him. (because of the absence of printed texts?

      Doubful, or it would be the case for any Amida.

I think it is the case for any Amida. I know I've seen it done, in
Yemenite shuls, for mincha on Shabbat, and I think I've seen it done for
mincha on Friday (which, by the way, was said after the beginning of
Kabbalat Shabbat, I think just before or maybe just after Mizmor
le-David, which makes a lot of sense, since even people like me who are
in the habit of taking a shower at the last minute and getting to shul
late for Kabbalat Shabbat, still get to daven mincha with a minyan).

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


End of Volume 44 Issue 96