Volume 45 Number 07
                    Produced: Sat Oct  2 22:47:29 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aleinu after Mincha (4)
         [Menashe Elyashiv, Akiva Miller, David Ziants, Edward Black]
Bracha on tornados etc.
Coconuts on the Table
         [Carl Singer]
         [Martin Stern]
High Holiday Services
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Machines that vend liquids
         [Carl Singer]
Matnas Yad (2)
         [Mordechai, Phillip Minden]
Molad Zokon Tidrosh
         [Elozor Reich]


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:41:46 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Aleinu after Mincha

I found a few minhagim:

1) Aleinu is said after the 3 main prayers, on a Musaf day it is delayed
until the end of Musaf.

2) Aleinu is said only after a Shema prayer i.e. Shaharit and Arvit, to
show the difference between us and them - this is the Yemanite baladi

3) If Arvit follows Minha, Aleinu is not said after Minha (maybe that is
the reason for the 2 minhagim for the evening LeDavid Hashem Ori). this
is the practice in most places. However, the Ari holds that one says
Aleinu 3 times a day, so in Mihag Sefard even in a Minha straight Arvit,
Aleinu is said twice.

4) If for some reason, Musaf does not follow Shaharit, some would say
Aleinu after Shaharit, but some would not, because one should follow the
general practice.

5)Yom Kippur: The Rama holds that no Aleinu or Ein Kealokanu after Musaf
because Minha follows, to keep the time also Aveinu Malkanu, Ashrei and
Uva LeSion is prosponed to Neela. But, most places do have a recess so
should Aleinu be said? There are different opinions.

6) Yom Kippur Minhag Sefard: no change, Aleinu after Musaf and Minha,
but not Neela. Two reasons: That is the Ari minhag. Also, Arvit always
follows Neela, so The Aleinu (and Kaddish Yatom) of Arvit "covers"

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:12:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Aleinu after Mincha

Martin Stern wrote <<< In my shul which does not have a break on Yom
Kippur we do not say aleinu at all until after Ma'ariv on Motsa'ei
YK. Is this also the case in other English shuls? >>>

In all the Ashkenaz shuls I've davened in, in Israel and the USA, most
of which do have a break between musaf and mincha, the procedure is the
same: No Alenu until Maariv on Motzaei Yom Kippur.

All the shuls that I've ever davened at (except for those associated
with the German community) - and this includes nusach sefard, seem to
have standardized a few rules, and they never deviate from them.

1) Shacharis always gets Alenu, except on days when there is Musaf, in
which case there is never an Alenu, even if there is a break for Kiddush
between them.

2) Musaf always gets Alenu, even if Mincha comes immediately afterward
(such as on Simchas Torah). But Musaf never gets Alenu on Yom Kippur,
even if there is a break before Mincha.

3) Mincha always gets Alenu (except on Yom Kippur), even when Maariv or
Kabbalas Shabbos begins immediately after Mincha.

4) Neilah never gets Alenu. (Duh!!!)

5) Maariv always gets Alenu (Duh again!!!) even though on Purim and
Tisha B'Av some people seem oblivious to it.

The common thread in these (it seems to me) is that we do what the
siddur says, regardless of how our shul chooses to schedule things. It's
a great example of the concept of "lo plug", "no exceptions". For
example, on Shabbos and Yom Tov, Shacharis and Musaf are together in the
siddur, and the siddur does not mention things like "If there is a break
for Kiddush, say Alenu here." But on Yom Kippur, which has its own
machzor, it was easy to omit all the Alenus, under the presumption that
people would be in shul all day. And there too, there was no exception
made for the shuls who do have a break.

Akiva Miller

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:04:37 +0200
Subject: Re: Aleinu after Mincha

The Nusach Ashkenaz Israeli Rinat Yisrael Machzor also doesn't have
aleinu at all until after Ma'ariv on Motsa'ei YK. The editor of the
Machzor (Shlomo Tal) was not afraid to make corrections from the
standard texts where he felt these are halachically warrented. Although
the first edition of this machzor was full of typos and printing
mistakes, most (but not all -at least in the later edition that I have)
have been corrected. I therefore assume the ommission of aleinu is

Since an Israeli shul would typically finish Musaph around 13:00 and
start Mincha 15:00, this is a little more than a break, but more of an
opportunity to catch up on sleep.

Thus not saying aleinu after musaph is very much of an anomaly in our

Also starting mincha directly with k'riat hatora, rather than ashrei
(which is at the beginning of neilla instead) is also a strange anomaly,
since the "break" is before mincha. Does anyone know the reason?

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: Edward Black <edwardblack@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:02:47 +0100
Subject: Aleinu after Mincha

In several shuls where I have davened over the years (nusach Ashkenaz)
and which do have a break Aleinu is not said in Mussaf, Minchah or
Nei'lah on Yom Kippur.  I believe this is the normative practice /
halakha. Two questions then: 

(1) Is this the halakha/practice in all nuscha'ot tefilla or just nusach
Ashkenaz? (2) can anyone offer an explanation?

Is it related to the fact that we recite Aleinu during the Mussaf
chazarat hashatz? Unlikely because we also recite Aleinu during the
Mussaf chazarat hashatz on Rosh Hashanah and we still say it at the end
of Mussaf

Kol tuv
Edward Black


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:59:03 +0200
Subject: Bracha on tornados etc.

What is the halacha regarding natural phenomena that (are likely to)
cause destruction or worse. ?

I know "ksheim sh'mvarchim ..." ("just as one blesses over good, so one
blesses over (seemingly) bad"), however there is also a klal (rule)
about a bracha not applying to harmful/bad things.

This is one of the may reasons given for not making a bracha on smoking
(aside from not making a bracha on an aveira etc.)

Chag Sameach
-- Yakir.


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:33:13 -0400
Subject: Coconuts on the Table

Anonymous wrote:

>>We do not make new g'zeirot.  However, regarding the non-dairy
>>creamer, it should be noted that if it is indeed pareve, and is being
>>served with a meat meal, it should be served with some indication that
>>it is pareve, such as serving it with its container.

>Does this still apply? Surely it is sufficiently well-known that parve
>substitutes for cream/creamer/milk exist, and therefore the concern for
>mar'it ayin no longer applies

Even though parve substitutes today are common, it may still behoove us
to use a distinguishable container

Remember that the gemora that sources this uses coconuts as the example
-- they've been around for a long time -- granted not that common in
many cultures.

In addition to mar'it ayin there are issue of hinuch (teaching) and
possibly kashruth confusion (without the distinguishable container one
mistakenly use a dairy creamer.

Carl Singer


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:45:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Glassware

on 28/9/04 4:42 am, Carl Singer <casinger@...> wrote:

> The kosher nursing / rehab home in Cleveland used (one set of) glassware
> [this was about 45 years ago as I recall] I believe a primary reason was
> simplicity and the reduction of possible kashruth errors -- both by the
> nursing home staff and by the various residents.

Possibly there is a distinction between three categories of glassware:

1 Drinking glasses etc. used only for cold food and drinks,
2 Plates etc. only used for eating hot food, i.e. at most kli sheini
3 Ovenware which would be kli rishon and might absorb even if made of glass.

Perhaps some others may be able to expand on this

Martin Stern 


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:46:08 +0200
Subject: Re: High Holiday Services

Dr. Katz stated the following (undated), in response to a letter from
Mark Symons:

      > BTW, in the pizmon (daily hymn with a refrain) Horeita derech
      > t'shuva on Tzom Gedalia I noticed a reference to Ahab having done
      > t'shuva. Does anyone know if this is referred to in tanach? If
      > not, what is the source?

      of course it is not in tanach
      in goldschmidt's edition of the selichot he gives the ref. as
      pirkay derabi eliezer 43

In MY copy (Seder Haselihot Keminhag Polin, Mossad Harav Kook, second
printing, 5725), Daniel Goldschmidt refers to both I Kings 21:27-29 and
Pirqei d'Rebbe Eli`ezer 43.

Is yours an earlier version or a later one?

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:09:58 -0400
Subject: Machines that vend liquids

>>> Do not use a coffee machine; non-kosher hot drinks found in the same
>>> machine probably go down the same pipe.

> I assume he means a coffee machine which does indeed serve other
> beverages.  Many coffee machines serve only coffee.

Same goes for vending machines that dispense liquid into a cup.
Both hot (coffee) which, for example, may have "chicken soup" as a menu
choice -- MANY serve hot chocolate. 
And cold (soda) which may include a soda (grape?) that may not have a

Also re: coffee -- if cream (powdered something) is added during vending
then you most likely need to consider that it will appear in traces in
your coffee even if you order yours black.

I recall once hearing someone complain about coffee that apparently was
dispensed right after someone had chicken soup.  Apparently some
residual remained in the pipes.

Carl Singer


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:57:50 EDT
Subject: Matnas Yad

The minhag of 'matnas yad' was recently mentioned here. I believe it is
a minhag of bnei Ashkenaz (Jews from Germany), in which at the end of
yom tov during the sholosh rigolim (three pilgrimage festivals) (last
day or so), when the krias haTorah includes the words 'ish kimatnas
yodo....', funds are pledged for tzedokko in Shul (e.g. for lomdei
Torah, aniyei eretz Yisroel) and a special mi shebeirach is recited for
the Rav and then by the Rav for the kahal (so I have gathered from the
luach of minhogim for bnei Ashkenaz and elsewhere).

I believe though, that there may be more to it as well. I recall reading
somewhere (it may have been something from Rav Shimon Schwab z"l) years
ago, of a custom in the Washington Heights, New York, Khal Adath
Jeshurun (KAJ) congregation, in which the members visit the Rav at his
home toward the end of yom tov, and, IIRC, he claimed that it was
connected to the Talmudic teaching that one should be 'mikabeil pnei
rabo' (simple translation would presumably be to visit one's Rebbi) on
the regel (sholosh rigolim) (I believe there is a difference of opinion
if it applies nowadays when there is no beis hamikdosh [temple in
Jerusalem], which I saw discussed in an English sefer by Rav Yitzchok
Sender years ago).

Can anyone shed more light on this ? Is the latter, visiting part,
practiced by others who practiced the first part above, or is it just a
KAJ variant ? Do any other types of congregations have anything like
part A or B ?


From: Phillip Minden <phminden@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:02:16 +0200
Subject: Re: Matnas Yad

> Can anyone shed more light on this ? Is the latter, visiting part,  
> practiced by others who practiced the first part above, or is it just a  
> KAJ variant ?

"[...] the tradition that each member of the congregation visit's the
rav's home in the afternoon to wish him well; some staying for a moment
to exchange a few words, others filing in and out of the house. This
literal fulfilment of the Shulchan Aruch's dictum that one is required
to greet his teacher on the holiday remains unique to KAJ [...]"
(Dr. David Kranzler and Rabbi Dovid Landesman: Rav Breuer : His Life and
His Legacy, p.192)

The quote doesn't indicate how ancient this minneg is, though, nor if it
was common in other communities before the chorben. I don't remember
seeing any allusion to it other than the one above, neither in minneg
books, personal memoirs etc. nor in scholarly minhogology works.


Phillip Minden


From: Elozor Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:04:18 +0100
Subject: Molad Zokon Tidrosh

Has anyone noticed that the Molad for the forthcoming Marcheshvan lands
precisely on the hour. This is not a common occurence.

Its frequency can be calculated fairly easily. One Molad follows another
after an interval of 29 days, 12 hours and 793 Chalokim. (There are 1080
Chalokim in an hour.) For the purposes of this computation one can
ignore complete days and weeks and say that the distance from one Molad
to the next is just 793 Chalokim.

A mathematical rule tells us that when we have two numbers like our 793
and 1080 which have no common factor (divisor) apart from the number
one, the following situation occurs. If one divides successive multiples
of 793 into successive multiples of 1080, there will always be a
remainder until one has reached the 1080th multiple of 793.

In our practical example this means that once a Molad has landed exactly
on the hour, it will take another 1080 Molados or months, i.e about 87
years, to hit the same spot. The last Molad which landed exactly on the
hour was that of Tammuz 5677 (June 1917). I doubt if I'll be around for
the next one.

Elozor Reich


End of Volume 45 Issue 7