Volume 45 Number 11
                    Produced: Sat Oct  9 23:28:25 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aramaic in Private Davening
         [Sam Saal]
Buying Arba Minim
         [Bill Bernstein]
Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India
         [Gershon Dubin]
Chofetz Chaim's Wedding
         [Nathan Lamm]
Different versions of Birkat Hamazon
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
Directions for lulav (2)
         [Shimon Lebowitz, Shimon Lebowitz]
Glassware (2)
         [Carl Singer, Batya Medad]
Halacha on Davening Mincha during Work
         [Arieh Lebowitz]
The Kohen Gadol's Prayer
         [Nathan Lamm]
Minhagim of Wife
         [Eli Turkel]
Prayer of Cohen Gadol
         [Eli Turkel]
Rav Moshe and Air Conditioning
         [Nathan Lamm]
Sukkahs made from material that blows in the wind
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
T'filos Ha-Shachar
         [Nathan Lamm]
Y.K. selichot
         [Eitan Fiorino]


From: Sam Saal <ssaal@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: Aramaic in Private Davening

Jeffrey Bock <bockny@...> wrote:

>(b) Rebbi Yochanan said - that if someone Davens in Aramaic, the angels
>(who carry one's Tefilos before the Heavenly Throne) will not respond,
>because they are not conversant with Aramaic.

I know people who skip the "barchuni l'shalom" verse of Friday evening's
"Shalom Aleichem" because it implies angels acting as an intermediary
between us and HaShem.  I have a corresponding difficulty here (although
I do sing the "barchuni" verse :-).

Sam Saal


From: Bill Bernstein <billheddy@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:59:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Buying Arba Minim

The same basic question about a minor giving over possession of the arba
minim is discussed in the Melamed L'Hoil 120.  He cites the different
opinions of the Rishonim and Acharonim there.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:35:01 GMT
Subject: Can one eat at Jaine restaurants in India

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>

> This is precisely the way avodah zarah was done in the times of Chazal
> and makes the remaining food assur, similar lehavdil to the way a
> minchah is consecrated by offering the komets.

I am fairly sure that the din of "shirayim" does NOT apply to Avodah
Zara, although I am not now in the position of being able to look it up.



From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:52:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chofetz Chaim's Wedding

Ben Katz says that the Chofetz Chaim's wife's name was Poupko. I believe
it was his mother (or, as was suggested here, his stepfather)- after
all, that's the name he went by.


From: Joshua Hosseinof <JHosseinof@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:54:52 -0400
Subject: Different versions of Birkat Hamazon

I've been looking into the different versions of Birkat Hamazon and I've
come across 5 significantly different nuschaot:

1. Ashkenazic
2. Sefardic (Baghdad/Yerushalayim)
3. Sefardic (Aleppo/Spanish-portuguese)
4. Yemenite
5. Italian

Are there any other versions that are significantly different than those
five?  I'm mainly interested in versions that are still in use today.
If possible, please let me know in which sefer or book the text can be

Josh Hosseinof


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:18:16 +0200
Subject: Directions for lulav


Yesterday, on the first day of YomTov, I was in Migron north of
Yerushalayim (not far from Beit-El). After davening, while I was reading
the Luach of Rav Tukchinsky (sp?)  regarding the Tefillot, I noticed
that he writes the directions for shaking the lulav as geographical
directions, E, S, W, N, rather than relative, such as: forward, right,
backward, left.

These are obviously the same when someone is facing east, but in Migron
I was facing south, and in fact the people had used the relative order
of directions.

So, I was wondering if anyone has any sources that relate to lulav
directions when someone is not facing east on Sukkot?

Moadim lesimcha,

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 14:43:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Directions for lulav

Regarding the email I sent about lulav directions, I have a bit to add.

> These are obviously the same when someone is facing east, but in
> Migron I was facing south, and in fact the people had used the
> relative order of directions.

Yesterday I was at a simcha of friends in Ma`ale Zeitim (a Jewish
neighborhood/compound on the southern slopes of Har haZeitim), where the
direction of tefilla is something like north-west.

One of the guests was Rav Mordechai Shternberg, of yeshivat Har haMor,
and the baal-hasimcha asked him the same question: Since they are not
facing east, should they wave the lulav according to relative directions
or compass points.

He did not answer definitevely, but said that it appears to him to be
dependant on whether one is following nusach Ashkenaz or Sfard(according
to the Ari).  He says he thinks it is plain that the Ashkenaz custom of
consecutive compass points, clockwise from east, really means clockwise
from straight ahead. Therefore, people using nusach Ashkenaz would end
up with the lulav pointing NW, NE, SE, SW.

However, the Ari's custom, with alternating axes in and out of the
horizontal plane, is probably meant to be followed regardless of the
direction of tefillah.

He did not seem to be giving a psak halacha, just a discussion of
opinion, but I figured I would add it here. I am also not quoting
directly, so any mistakes are probably mine!

Moadim lesimcha,
Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:08:07 -0400
Subject: Glassware

>> The kosher nursing / rehab home in Cleveland used (one set of)
>> glassware [this was about 45 years ago as I recall] I believe a
>> primary reason was simplicity and the reduction of possible kashruth
>> errors -- both by the nursing home staff and by the various
>> residents.

> Possibly there is a distinction between three categories of glassware:
> 1 Drinking glasses etc. used only for cold food and drinks,
> 2 Plates etc. only used for eating hot food, i.e. at most kli sheini
> 3 Ovenware which would be kli rishon and might absorb even if made of glass.
> Perhaps some others may be able to expand on this
> Martin Stern 

We're talking about #2 glass plates used in the same way that one would
use china to serve hot food.

I believe it's Rabbainu Tam discusses (and approved the use of the same
glassware for both meat & milk -- and then myriad Rabbis who disapproved
usually with some objections to what's really glass (e.g., does pyrex
qualify), impurities in the glass, etc.


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 06:01:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Glassware

    3 Ovenware which would be kli rishon and might absorb even if made
    of glass.
    Perhaps some others may be able to expand on this

Glass doesn't go into the oven (and survive whole).  Pyrex/durelex does;
it looks like glass.  When I learned my basic halacha in the late '60's
I was taught that the -lex did not have the halachik properties of glass
and was not to used interchangeably.  In Israel, lots of glass isn't
glass; it's -ex.  Sepharadim consider it glass, and as far as I know
Ashkenazim, who ask, considerit problematic.



From: Arieh Lebowitz <ariehnyc@...>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Halacha on Davening Mincha during Work

In Mail.Jewish Mailing List / Volume 45 Number 08 / Oct 2 23:27:16 EDT
2004, Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...> asks what the halacha is on
davening mincha during work.  He wants to know if an employer is
obligated to allow it, and if an employer can dock pay for it.

Of course, as a general rule, this question is only relevant if the
employer in question is relating to employees in an halachic fashion,
which is generally not the case either within Israel or the diaspora.

However, this issue is discussed in some online sources.  See, for
example, "Hilchos Choshen Mishpat, Volume II : Number 18: Using An
Employer's Property And Time," online at:


"A worker is not permitted to pray at his employer's expense without his
approval. Therefore, a worker who has not yet prayed Shacharis and has
come to work should not sign in until he has completed his prayers and
is able to start work.  Mincha or Maariv should be prayed during a time
when the employees have a break, or else it should be considered a
personal break and deducted from the salary. However, if the employer
agrees that he may pray during work hours, or it is well known that in
this work place this is done and the employer has no problem with it, he
may pray during working time."


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Kohen Gadol's Prayer

I doubt fears of charges of treason would be the answer- after all, most
non-Jews of the day spoke Aramaic. If anything, they would use Hebrew if
they didn't want the Romans understanding, not that it would likely


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:55:00 +0200
Subject: Minhagim of Wife

With respect to a wife keeping the customs of her husband or her parents
I had an incident over succot. I wave the lulac in the sefard/Ari order
while my wife was brought up in the Ashkenaz order. When waving the
lulav in our succah my wife automatically did it the way she grew
up. When I remarked on it she said that after all the years we are
married she remembers what she did as a youngster.

Poskim say that when one moves one can keep his original minhag on
waving the lulav even thiugh his current shul does it differently.  This
is only a custom and so the rules of lo tigodedu don't apply.  As a
prrof R. Gamliel did not wave his lulav at the same place where others
did. Hence, I see no problem with a wife keeping her family custom on
these types of minhagim.

moadim lesimchah,

Eli Turkel


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:03:26 +0200
Subject: Prayer of Cohen Gadol

<<When the kohen gadol was about the leave the kodesh hakodoshim after
offering the incense he intoned a "short prayer."  All of his petitions
are in Lashon Hakodesh except one-- lo y'adi avid shilton me bet
yehudah. which is the Targum for "lo yasur shevet me yehudah.  Does
anyone have some sources for this deviation?>>

In addition the prayer was basically for materialistic requests rather
than spiritual ones. Any reason?

Eli Turkel


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rav Moshe and Air Conditioning

Gershon Dubin mentions the Yeshiva of Staten Island.  It should be noted
that this is a branch of Rav Moshe's "actual" yeshiva, Mesivta Tiffereth
Jerusalem on the Lower East Side. I wonder what the practice is there.


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <hsabbam@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:21:48 -0400
Subject: RE: Sukkahs made from material that blows in the wind

>From: Daniel Lowinger <Daniel.Lowinger@...>
>Does any one out there have any opinions on the succahs that you can buy
>which are made from material that flaps in the wind. What is the
>halachic permissability of them. Obviously there are heterim that exist
>as so many people have them. I am looking for reasons why and why not
>they could be used.

My succah is made of pipes and canvs.  The part that backs on a wall is
no problem.  I normally have the canvas so taut that it does not move in
a ruach metzuyah (normal wind).  However, my rabbi had a suggested

We string fishing line around the walls tied to the poles, three
tefachim apart in parallel rows three tefachim aprt up to ten tefachim
high.  Halachically, this is the wall which does not move.  The canvas
is just for comfort like drapes in a window.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahillel@...>


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: T'filos Ha-Shachar

What tefillos is Alan Friedenberg talking about? Does
he mean aloud?


From: Eitan Fiorino <Fiorino@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:16:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Y.K. selichot

I also believe the inclusion of many piyyutim and the amount of time
needed to recite them contributed to the loss of selichot from most
nusach Ashkenaz machzorim.  The Sephardic and Italian nusachot continue
to contain selichot, and there has been an effort in some quarters
(perhaps originating from YU) to re-introduce selichot intho nusach
Ashkenaz.  I believe this is the practice of the YU beit midrash, it was
the practice at Einstein which followed the minhagim of YU when I was in
med school, and Rabbis Neuberger and Taubes of Teaneck NJ have published
a sefer of the Y.K. selichot to be recited according to the Ashkenazic
rite (and their kehilot have adopted this practice).

Chag sameach,

[Note: I can confirm that the minhag at the YU minyan for Yom Kippur was
to say a selection of selichot during the repitition of Musaf. We would
have the "standard" selichot booklets that were used during the previous
week available and a selection of selichot were said. I do not remember
how we knew which to say, whether there was a list handed out or if they
annnounced it from the Bima. This would have been in the 1965-1977
period. Avi]


End of Volume 45 Issue 11