Volume 45 Number 32
                    Produced: Fri Oct 22  5:21:47 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Brich Shmei
Chodosh (2)
         [Ben Katz, Perets Mett]
clop for "U'lchaparat Pasha"
         [Carl Singer]
Friday night angels
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
         [Perets Mett]
Obligation to help with a minyan
Shaking the Lulav
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
Some terrific Drisha programs coming up
         [Freda B Birnbaum]


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:48:33 EDT
Subject: Brich Shmei

<< From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> The custom of German Jews is never to say Brich Shemeih.

Just to add some background to the above, I will mention that a very
thorough and comprehensive treatment (over twenty five amudim) of the
issue can be found in the sefer 'Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz', cheilek
aleph, by Rav Binyomin Hamburger (Mochon Moreshes Ashkenaz, Bnei Brak
5755). He gives many reasons (over ten) for the above minhag not to say
it as part of davening and states additionally that it was/is not said
in some central Yeshivas as well, in addition to such a practice among
some Litvaks (including one famous Rabbi Y.M. Kagan z"l).



From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:30:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Chodosh

>From: David Maslow <maslowd@...>
>Can anyone explain why yashan is considered, in the US at least, as a
>chumrah by large segments of the Orthodox world, including the major
>kashrut supervisory organizations?  Clearly even Rav Moshe did not give
>it the highest priority, which is puzzling considering it is mentioned
>in the Torah.

         This is a complex halachic and historical topic.  From my
limited understanding, min hatorah [from the Torah] there is no real way
to matir [permit] chadash (just like chametz sheavar alav hapesach
should not be eaten).  Yet, when Jews lived in Europe and there was
winter as well as spring wheat, this became a real issue and various
heterim were accpeted over time (and as was the case of selling your
chametz - the leniences grew upon each other over time).  Now that we
are more affluent and the idea of chumrot more popular, many are not
eating yashan anymore, but Jews basically ate it for hundreds of years
in europe, is my understanding. Sephardim never accepted any of these

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:38:55 +0100
Subject: Chodosh

David Maslow wrote:
> Can anyone explain why yashan is considered, in the US at least, as a
> chumrah by large segments of the Orthodox world, including the major
> kashrut supervisory organizations?

This question is asked by the Taz  YD 293

Basically, the generally accepted position was to follow the BaCh, who
rules that chodosh does not apply to grain grown by gentiles

Perets Mett


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:57:13 -0400
Subject: Re: clop for "U'lchaparat Pasha"

Obviously different shules have different mihagim.

I've been to shules where a few people take it upon themselves to pound
a bench or make some other banging noise -- usually to the confusion of
some and to help others remember -- sometimes they clop when they

Our shule has a placard with various reminders (such as "Yaleh v'yahvo")
that is on the wall in front of the Chazzen's shtender.  Clearly not
everyone can see it.

Gabbaim if they are present, frequently announce verbally at an
appropriate time prior to the shemoneh esrai.

On occasions of major change (such as Moreed HaGeshem) the Rabbi may
spend a minute or two reminding us as well as discussing the halachos of
what to do if we forgot, etc.

It seems that the least civil and least informative of all of these 
options is the bang the bench.

Carl Singer


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:42:50 +0200
Subject: Re: Friday night angels

Perets Mett <p.mett@...> stated the following on Sun, 17 Oct 2004
09:15:11 +0100:

      The Sfas Emes (Vayeitsei 5661) says that there are distinct angels
      for weekdays and Shabbos. We say "tseithekhem lesholoim" to the
      weekday malokhim. However, before taking their leave we greet the
      Shabbos malokhim "boakhem lesholoim", as they descend from heaven
      before the weekday malokhim depart.

Sefardim recite a verse at the end, before Tzetkhem leshalom, beginning
Beshivtekhem leshalom.

It makes sense, in that we tell the angels, verse by verse, welcome,
come, bless us, sit down (or rest), leave in peace. These would all seem
to apply to the Shabbasdik angels.

A case could be made for with having the angels sit with us or rest with
us.  Which seems more likely?

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:12:45 +0100
Subject: Kiddush

Yakir wrote:
> I have not seen that anybody raised the issue of whether "trai kalai lo
> mishtamai" (can each of two simultaneous voices/sounds be heard).  As a
> an example if there are a number of families, each husband intending to
> "be motzi" his wife etc., the wife who intends to be "yotze" with her
> husband's kiddush might have difficulty (objective and/or halachic)
> doing so if there are other, possibly louder, recitations being
> performed simultaneously.

Matei Ephrayim 625:47 says that where several families occupy one sukko,
the householders should make kiddush separately. In a footnote quoting
Elyo Rabo and others, he explicitly refers to the reason of 'trei kolo
lo mishtamei" In essence, where kiddush is being heard by others to be
yotse, only one person should be saying the kiddush.

However, others who make kiddush for themselves only may recite in

This happens on an ordinary Shabbos in our home. If one or more of my
married children is present, we each make kiddush separately, being
motsi our wives (& children). Our bochurim and unmarried guests make
kiddush separately or together, as they choose.

Perets Mett


From: Anonymous
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:14:35
Subject: Obligation to help with a minyan

Is there an halachic obligation to help make a minyan?  We were 8 and
counting when a frum Jew (black yarmulke) walked past the door to our
shule -- we asked if he'd help us make the minyan -- he replied that he
had already davened (clearly we all knew that he could nonetheless be
counted.) and walked on.


From: Joshua Hosseinof <JHosseinof@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:20:42 -0400
Subject: Shaking the Lulav

Regarding how one should act in a shul that follows a different minhag
of how and when to shake the lulav, I would refer people to a recently
published sefer that I can highly recommend by the name of Banim
Chavivim written by Rabbi Eliyahu Yanay of Lakewood NJ.  The topic of
the sefer is specifically issues of "Lo titgoddedu" - how to behave in
the situations where your minhag is different than that of the
synaogogue or home where you are present.  The book has a section on the
fundamental issues of "lo titgodedu", and then a section on specific
halachic issues, and it covers minhagim of Ashkenazim, sephardim,
moroccans, yemenites, chasidim.

Naturally, there is a chapter on shaking the lulav.  As a primary source
he brings the Mishnah Sukkah 3:9, where Rabbi Akiva says that he saw
Rabban Gamliel and Ribbi Yehoshua, that everyone else was shaking their
lulav, but the two Rabbis only shook their lulav at "Ana Hashem Hoshia
Na".  Aruch Hashulchan 651:22 explicitly cites this mishnah as a proof
to allow someone to shake his lulav differently than the congregation.
The author then cites Sedei Chemed (Vol 4 Klallim Maarechet Lamed, Klal
79, page 46) that for a minhag that is only a "hidur mitzvah" (an
enhancement to the basic mitzvah), or that has no "serach issur" (no
hint of a prohibition), then the principle of "lo titgodedu" does not
apply, of which both conditions are true for shaking the lulav.

He brings, however, other poskim who disagree regarding shaking the
lulav, such as sefer Etz Hasadeh (651:35) and Chayei Adam (148:14), who
say that one must follow the congregation's minhag.  And a compromise
position of the sefer Siach Halacha which cites a teshuva of Rav Chaim
Kanievsky that for the beracha on the lulav one should shake like one's
own minhag, but during hallel one should shake like the congregation.

The different opinions in this instance may hinge on the fundamental
definition of "lo titgodedu" as it applies to minhagim, since the three
major positions are: a. It applies only to things which have a
prohibition involved in them (a prohibition of either torah, rabbinic,
or minhag/preventative fence origin), and not to mere differences of
minhag on how to do certain mitzvot.  b. It applies both to things which
have a prohibition involved in them, and to differences of minhag c. It
applies only to differences of Minhag

The author concludes that it in his opinion, that if one wants to follow
one's own minhag for shaking the lulav, one has the right to do so, but
that in this case since it may cause confusion to other people, and
someone in the congregation may object, and since ultimately everyone
agrees that no matter which way you shake the lulav you are still
fulfilling the mitzvah, it is therefore preferable to follow the
congregation's minhag on this particular issue.


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Subject: Some terrific Drisha programs coming up

A nice mix of one-time lectures and short classes.  Note that several of 
them are free, and all of them are outstanding!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Judith Tenzer <jtenzer@...>

Avivah Zornberg Lecture - Thursday, October 21
"Isaac: Blindness and Blessing" is the subject of this year's Renee and
Alexander Bohm Memorial Lecture, sponsored by their grandchildren,
Elissa Shay Ordan and Daniel J. Ordan. Avivah Zornberg, Bible scholar
and author, will deliver the lecture on Thursday, October 21 at 7:00
p.m. The community is invited.

Bat Mitzvah and Beyond
Beginning Sunday, October 24, Shuli Sandler will lead Beit Midrash study
on "Prayer, Not Just Words..." for girls who are within one year of
their Bat Mitzvah and their mothers or learning partners.
http://www.drisha.org/batmitzvah.html. This is in response to the
enthusiastic graduates of last year's Bat Mitzvah program who wanted to
continue learning together.  We will again offer the Beit Midrash study,
"Jewish Women through the Ages," for pre-Bat Mitzvah girls and their
mothers in January.

Tamar Ross at Drisha
Beginning Monday, October 25, Tamar Ross will teach a five-week short
course, "Maimonides and the Challenge of Rationalism." The course is
from 6:00 to 7:30 p.m. http://www.drisha.org/continuinged/philosophy

Rachel Friedman Lunchtime classes
On Tuesday, November 2, from 12:30 to 2:00 p.m. Rachel Friedman will
teach a lunchtime class http://www.drisha.org/continuinged/lunchtime on
"Abraham, Sarah and Lot: The Imagery of Land in Sefer Bereshit." She
will also teach "the Name of God is Always on His Lips: Reflections on
Joseph," on Tuesday, November 30, 12:30 - 2:00 p.m. Both classes are
open to women and men.

Emergencies and Medical Treatment on Shabbat; Muktza - Lunchtime Halakha
Daniel Reifman will teach a three-session course
http://www.drisha.org/continuinged/lunchtime on "Emergencies and Medical
Treatment on Shabbat." The class, open to women and men, will meet on
Wednesday, November 3, 10, and 17 from 12:30 to 2:00 p.m. A four-session
class on the laws of Muktza will begin on Wednesday, November 24.

Leon Kass - Maidi Katz Memorial Lecture Series
Dr. Leon Kass, Chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, and
author of The Beginning of Wisdom: Reading Genesis, will deliver the
2004 Maidi Katz Memorial Lecture Series. The first lecture, "From Behind
the Veil: A Woman for All Seasons," will be on Monday, November 8 at
7:30 p.m. The second lecture, "The Love of Woman and the Love of God:
The Education of Jacob," will be on Tuesday, November 16 at 7:30 p.m.
The community is invited.

Rifka Rosenwein Memorial Lecture in Mishnah - December 5
Avraham Walfish will lecture on "God, Nature, and Community in Mishnaic
Thought: A Literary Study of Mishnaic Passages." The lecture, in memory
of Rifka Rosenwein on her first yahrzeit, represents the start of a
major initiative in the study of Mishnah at Drisha. The lecture will
take place on Sunday, December 5 at 8:00 p.m. and is open to the

Winter Week of Learning
This year's Winter Week of Learning will take place Monday - Wednesday,
December 27 - 29. The theme is Jewish Medical Ethics and it will include
sessions on organ transplant, stem-cell research, cloning and
infertility. For further information contact <jtenzer@...>

Winter Week for Teenage Girls
A special Winter Week program for High School girls is planned for
Sunday - Wednesday, December 26 - 29. The program includes learning,
sightseeing, ice-skating, and more; meeting old and new friends from
different places while getting acquainted with Drisha. For further
information contact Wendy Amsellem, <wamsellem@...>

Judith Tenzer
Program Director, Drisha Institute for Jewish Education
37 West 65th Street, 5th floor
New York, NY 10024
(212) 595-0307


End of Volume 45 Issue 32