Volume 45 Number 37
                    Produced: Mon Oct 25  6:22:29 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arba minim
         [Perets Mett]
Chazon Ish on running water & electricity
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Chillul Shabbat at Mekorot
         [Perets Mett]
Electricity on Shabbat (2)
         [Ira L. Jacobson, Frank Silbermann]
Funeral in Yerushalayim
         [Ari Kahn]
History & YU/ HTC
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
         [Carl Singer]
Minhag Jerusalem for funeral
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Orach Hashulcan vs. Mishna Berurah
         [Dov Bloom]
Where aliyas begin and end
         [Yitschak Maser]


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 09:24:27 +0100
Subject: Arba minim

Immanuel Burton wrote:

> Common practice when shaking the lulav is to hold the esrog upside down
> until one has recited the blessing, and then turn the esrog the right
> way up.  Rather than engaging in such acrobatics, I have adopted the
> practice of holding the lulav only, reciting the blessing and then
> picking up the esrog the right way round.

I have also adopted this custom.

> I was rather bemused one day to be challenged by someone about this,
> as he seemed to think that the way the mitzvah is fulfilled is to hold
> the esrog upside down until the blessing has been recited and then
> turn it round, and that one can't fulfill the mitzvah the way I was
> doing it!

That just shows you that however uneducated people are, they are not 
shy of criticizing others!
Both methods are mentioned in O.Ch.651:5

> With regards to holding the lulav and esrog during Hallel and the
> Hoshanos, is there a requirement to hold the lulav and esrog in both
> hands throughout in the way that one does when shaking the lulav
> initially, or may one hold them in one hand, as is common practice?

The mechaber says that the Ethrog should be held in the left hand., and
a number of poskim say that one cannot be yotse if both are held in one

Why should there be a difference between the way one holds the 4 minim
for the brocho and Halel and Hoshanos?

Perets Mett


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:08:16 -0400
Subject: Chazon Ish on running water & electricity

The Judaica auction taking place Oct 26 @5:00 in the Sheraton New York
has as lot 217 a handwritten letter "addressing the issue of running
water without the use of electricity as not to desecrate the Sabbath".

The catalog shows only the last lines and signature- Maybe someone from
this group can get there to read it? It is viewable all day Moday and

Yossi Ginzberg


From: etzion <atzion@...>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:09:05 +0200
Subject: Re: Chillul Shabbat at Mekorot

The issur on using electricity on Shabbat that was issued by the Chhazon
Ish was based on the work done by Jews at the Power Station. Rav Goren
wrote a lenghty Teshuva in Meshiv Milchama where he maintained that
conditions have changed since the days of the Chazon Ish- and that he
visited and spoke to experts- so that almost all the work is
automatic. Consequently, in Rav Goren's opinion, there is no longer any
reason to be Machmir!


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:21:48 +0100
Subject: Electricity

David Charlap wrote:

> Operation of the power grid on Shabbat is critical, for reasons of
> pikuach nefesh (saving lives).  The grid provides power to hospitals,
> air conditioners in elderly people's homes, police departmets, etc.
> Given the critical nature of these services, if non-Jews are not
> available to run the power grid on Shabbat, then one could argue that a
> Jew must do the job.

Isn't this rather simplistic?

Of course, when a pikuach nefesh situation arises, Jews must be ready to
do whatever is necessary, even at the expense of performing a melokho on
Shabbos. But in the case of the grid, the situation is wholly
foreseeable. What efforts does the electricity company take to
anticipate and avoid chilul Shabbos? That is the real question.

Perets Mett


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:31:05 +0200
Subject: Re: Electricity on Shabbat

> 3) Since no one observing Shabbat increases their use  of electricity
> on Shabbat itself, no one is creating an increased demand that was not
> present before Shabbat.

IF I didn't have a shabbas zeiger [Shabbos Clock, i.e. timer. Mod.], and
IF I didn't use it to control the air conditioner, then I might be able
to agree with you.

> Namely, because the hospitals need the electricity, and they are part
> of the grid, it is therefore -- because of pikuach nefesh -- allowed
> for Jews to perform the necessary actions in the power plants on
> Shabbos.

IF hospitals didn't have generators for use in emergencies, and IF no
hospital used its generator on shabbas rather than the electric grid,
then I might be able to agree with you.

            IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:18:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Electricity on Shabbat

In V45 N35 several people raised the question whether frum Jews allowing
electrical appliances (e.g. lightbulbs) to run on Shabbas increases the
amount of work done by Jewish utility workers above and beyond that
which is needed to power the hospitals.

I think one might also ask whether _change_in_demand_ is what causes
extra work, i.e., whether fewer adjustments to the system are needed
when demand for electricity remains steady.

If Jews create power by turning the crank of a dynamo by hand, then more
electricity means more work.  On the other hand, if electricity is
generated by motors, and the utility workers must match the speed of the
motor to the demand for electricity, then a steady unchanging demand
would require the least melachah.

Frank Silbermann	New Orleans, Louisiana		<fs@...>


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:40:04 +0200
Subject: Funeral in Yerushalayim

Minhag Yerushalayim discourages children from attending the funeral of a
parent. The reason is that children represent the good deeds left being
by a person - the "logic" behind the minhag - is if the good stay away
the bad deeds and "klipot" will stay away as well. Regarding woman the
issue is tumah. While this is generally considered minhag yerushalayim -
I have seen other places in Israel where they follow the same
practice. If someone asks me before or during a funeral - and insists
that the child or woman would like to attend - I always advise them to
do as the please - and tell the chevra kedisha that this is not their
minhag. Many people do not have the frame of mind to protest and do as
they are told.

Ari Kahn


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 09:48:58 -0400
Subject: History & YU/ HTC

I have nothing to add to the thread about YU's current status, but I was
once (a long time ago!) a student at HTC and the attached letter was a
"prize" passed down among the graduates at that time.

[If anyone wants a copy of the jpeg of the letter sent by Joseph, please
contact him directly, or you can also contact me. I do not attach any
jpegs etc to the list issues. Mod]

It's a letter written by Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman (who was later killed
in the Kovno ghetto, with all his students) responding to a questioner,
that the only yeshivot in the USA able to issue student visa's are YU
and HTC, both of which are places of spiritual danger, and thus there is
no point in escaping from Europe's physical danger at the price of
entering there.

I don't think the obvious thread of his being right or wrong is a topic
to be discussed in this forum, but the historical fact is interesting,
and should be preserved.

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:42:19 -0400
Subject: Klopping

> There are times when banging on the desk etc is the only means available
> to remind worshippers of changes. Specifically, before the Shacharit
> amidah, when no interruption of any kind is allowed after "Ga'al
> Yisroel" the accepted method to remind about Ya'aleh Veyavoh is to
> bang. However, there should be one designated official who should do it
> so it doesn't descend to a cacophony of banging.

A verbal announcement can be made prior to "Ga'al Yisroel" -- even
before "Borchu"

If your shule has signs then the Gabbai can simply point to the
appropriate sign for emphasis as a reminder.

Carl Singer


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:18:07 -0400
Subject: Minhag Jerusalem for funeral

>Seeking any and all explanations for a Minhag Yerushalayim was at a
>levayah in Yerushalayim and I noticed several things^..

1) According to kabbala and explicitly mentioned in the Tfilas Zakah
said on Erev Yom Kippur, male masturbation creates "evil spirits" that
are considered like sons to the person. Since these are evidence of
forbidden acts, we don't want them to follow him to his judgement and be
blatantly "visible" at his heavenly trial.  Therefore, the custom of
Jerusalem has long been to announce when the procession leaves for the
burial "No sons are to follow the body to the burial".  Nowadays, mostly
for Americans who get upset at this exclusion, they allow the sons to
precede (rather than follow) the procession, and stand near the burial
but at the side.

2 & 3) Women in general and daughters in particular are dissuaded
whenever possible from going to the burials in Jerusalem for fear of
their becoming too emotional.  Remember that burials in Jerusalem don't
have coffins or elevators for lowering the body , and the dirt is
shoveled in without anything between, making it a very vivid experience.
It is easy to imagine children becoming overwrought at the sight.

4) As a result of the above, the Seudat Havraa, which is usually eaten
on return from the cemetery, is eaten when that time would be had they

5) Minhag Jerusalem is (as per the Talmud, i think), to make 7 stops
along the route of the procession, at each a kaddish is said.  In the
case of exceptional Gedolim, they sometimes also make a hesped at each

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:29:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Orach Hashulcan vs. Mishna Berurah

> The largest Orthodox shul in Pittsburgh's previous Rov told a friend
> of mine (many decades ago) that he/the shul paskens like the Aruch
> Hashulchon, and gave a reason that there is the AhS on all 4 parts of
> the Shulchon Aruch, while the MB is only on Orach Chaim.

A real community Rabbi need Yoreh Deah and EvenHaEzer and Choshem Mishpat
too.  I think the MB became more popular in the 60's-70's, because of
the upswing in Yeshiva influence as opposed to community Rov
influence. The AhS was a Rov of a city , Novardok and Moscow, and had to
deal with real life community situations. The MB it seems to me was more
small town and as a rule tried to follow divergent halachic opinions
(laTzait Yedei Shetayhem) instead of paskening like one or the other as
a Rov of a community would do.

Dov A Bloom


From: Yitschak Maser <simone.maser@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:30:41 +0200
Subject: Where aliyas begin and end

For sephardim, The first torah reading aliyah in Bereishis covers the
first three aliyahs for the ashkenazim. There are differences between
ashkenazim and sephardim not only within the readings for a shabbos, but
also within the readings for holidays and chol hamoed. Chabad seems to
have its differences also.

Why are there differences in where the Aliyahs begin and end?  Who
decided where the aliyahs begin and end? What are the sources?  Are
there differences also among Italki, Temani, other chassidic groups
etc.?  Is there any effect of these divisions for aliyahs outside of
kriyas hatorah (e.g. use in referencing passages)?

kol toov

Yitschak Maser
Montpellier, France


End of Volume 45 Issue 37