Volume 45 Number 71
                    Produced: Tue Nov 16  6:35:44 EST 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Be aware of your sources women and  aliya
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Christian concept
         [Arnie Kuzmack]
Cohanim Going to Kivrei Tzaddikim
         [Joel Rich]
Guests' lateness
         [Martin Stern]
Halacha and change
         [Heshy Grossman]
Lateness to Shul (8)
         [<chips@...>, David Neuman, Batya Medad, Dov Ettner,
Michael U Samter, Martin Stern, Martin Stern, Martin Stern]
May One Wish non Jews a Merry -mas?
         [Bernard Raab]


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:16:25 -0500
Subject: Be aware of your sources women and  aliya

>R' David Golinkin.  "Aliyot for Women." Teshuvot Va'ad haHalakha 3.
>English summary: http://www.responsafortoday.com/engsums/3_2.htm
>Hebrew Original: http://www.responsafortoday.com/vol3/2.pdf

Be aware that David Golinkin is a conservative Rabbi and would not be
considered a reliable source on this list.


From: Arnie Kuzmack <Arnie@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:44:57 -0500
Subject: Re:  Christian concept

>> turn the other cheek (a Christian concept, btw)
> Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure the concept is mentioned at
> least twice in the Neviyim Achronym.

I could only find one reference in Tanakh, to Eicha 3:30: yiten lemakehu
lehi ("Let him offer his cheek to him who strikes him").  I did a search
on lehi; it's possible, of course, that there are other verses with a
similar meaning that do not use the same word.

I am not an expert on Eicha.  However, it seems to me that the context
here is quite different from the Christian concept.  Rather than being
presented as a desirable form of behavior, it is an undesirable
consequence of the powerlessness that results when Hashem temporarily
turns away.


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:05:44 EST
Subject: Re: Cohanim Going to Kivrei Tzaddikim

<< Subject: Re: Hannukah and Halloween

 See Rabbi D. Sperber's excellent series "Minhagei Yisrael" volume 2 page
 227 where he discusses the sources for this "custom" - while it's been
 continually debunked, it seems to have a life of its own (hmmm-perhaps
 HKB"H is paskening through history????  oops that's another discussion!)

 Joel Rich

Sorry-wrong subject line-this was cohanim going to kivrei tzaddikim
Joel Rich


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:48:38 +0000
Subject: Guests' lateness

on 16/11/04 2:42 am,  Carl Singer <casinger@...> wrote:

> When you get up off of the floor and stop your polemics -- I invite my
> Shabbos guests and I am in no way subsidizing their meal.  However, if
> they CHOOSE to come an hour after the agreed upon time (under ordinary
> circumstances) they would likely find my family and the other guests
> already eating -- and they would likely apologize for coming late.

This seems to be another not uncommon phenomenon. When I invite guests
for dinner on Friday evening in the summer, I tell them that I daven at
such and such a shul at a certain time (quarter of an hour before plag
haminchah) and therefore expect to eat about an hour after. Is it
unreasonable to expect that they should therefore either join me in that
shul or go to another in the neighbourhood which davens at more or less
the same time rather than one that davens an hour or so later. Am I
being hypersensitive in feeling somewhat aggrieved that they come over
an hour late when the food has gone cold and the children are more than
a little fractious, as has happened on more than one occasion? We hear
much about the mitsvah of hachnassat orchim - hosting guests - are their
not any mitsvot that apply to the latter?

Martin Stern


From: <Rabbihg1@...> (Heshy Grossman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:51:32 EST
Subject: Re: Halacha and change

<Artkamlet@...> (Art Kamlet)
>How do we combine the idea that "G-d has one clear-cut way in which He
>wants the world to function" with Rabbi Yehoshua's reply to the bat kol,
>the heavenly voice that declared the law is as R Eleazer stated, that
>"lo bashamayim hee" [It (the law) is not in heaven (any more; it is in
>the hands of the Sanhederin)]

The Nefesh HaChaim (end of Shaar 1) explains "Lo BaShamayim Hee" in a
manner precisely opposite to the way it is commonly understood, as cited
above. He states that any possibility of changing the Torah's directives
based upon man's understanding existed only for the Avos, but once Moshe
Rabbeinu brought the Torah down to earth - "Lo Bashamyim Hee" - and
individuals should not presume the ability to minimize, detract or
violate even the slightest Halachic inference.

This is predicated on his explanation throughout Shaar 1 of a Tzelem
Elokim - that every thought, word and deed of man reflects the immutable
and eternal truth of G-d, and this truth can never be voided or ignored.

Heshy Grossman


From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:43:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

> A long-time idea of mine is distributing eleeyes [calls to the torah]
> before the shatz starts, which might help at least on days when the
> torah is read.
> questions:
> - Ever heard of a shool/minyen where this is done?

Yes, we do that unofficially.

For this minyan we try to go in order of the peoples arrival. It doesn't
work out perfectly (aside from the Kohein/Levy issue) since we rarely
have 5 Yisroelym on time.


From: David Neuman <daveselectric@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:43:41 -0500
Subject: Lateness to Shul

Wether it is lateness in shul or other halochos, we are in a society
that does not sweat the small stuff.  We have gone from the simple
basics.  We are worried about other Mitzvos and choose to ignore the
simple Mitzvos.  Not only do we ignore these Mitzvos, over the past
twenty years or so we have misinterpreted many of the smaller Mitzvos
and thus not properly performing them as we should.

I think we need to go back to the basics and follow the K.I.S. method.
Proper performance of a simple Mitzvah will bring a person to the next
Mitzvah and to the next level and climb to higher heights in accordance
with the Torah.  Charity begins at home.  We need to clean our own acts
up first and then by example, we show and teach others and they will

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:35:21 +0200
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

> The last question I keep asking myself is when Rabbi's care so little
> about halacha to intentionally come to shul late, why should I.
> Expecially when I just lost my job because I keep Shabbos.  If davening
> isn't important to them why should Shabbat be important to me?"

Don't let one hypocrite personify Judaism for you.  He doesn't own it.
It's larger and greater than he is.  If you're out of work and have more
free time, go to a different minyon, a larger one, that won't make you
so nervous about getting a minyon on time.  Obviously it ruins your
dovening waiting for the completion.  And you can say that the reason
you're going to a new one is that you can't concentrate/doven with
kavana until there's a full minyon, and the habitual latecomers are the

Good Luck in finding the right minyon for you.

http://me-ander.blogspot.com/ <http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/>

From: Dov Ettner <dov.etner@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:17:13 +0200
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

I once heard Rabbi Leff of Moshav Mattityahu comment, that if someone at
at certain place and time was handing out $100 bills, how many people
would come late ?


From: <Samter613@...> (Michael U Samter)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:51:10 EST
Subject: RE: Lateness to Shul

Just a thought.  Why would there be a Siman in Shulchan Aruch about what
the correct procedure should be for latecomers and how they should
attach themselves to the Tefila of the Tzibbur?  BTW, that Siman does
not seem to attach any stigma to those that arrive late for tefilah>

Michael U Samter

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:01:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

on 16/11/04 2:42 am, Minden <phminden@...> wrote:

> Chiyoovem are a minneg, not a din. Would it be allowed for the board
> or the rabbi to issue a takone [decree] saying people lose their chiyuv?

If someone is not in shul to receive his aliyah, he has lost it through
his own action, so a takkannah is not needed.

The same would apply to an aveil who turns up late and someone else has
started davenning as shats. I have seen, on several occasions, an aveil
who came late for minchah (while the shats is in the middle of ashrei)
snatch the tallit from the latter and 'take over'. Can there be any
greater bizayon (disgrace) for the departed parent than such high-handed
behaviour by their son?

Martin Stern

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:03:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

on 16/11/04 2:42 am, Ben Katz <bkatz@...> wrote:

> The whole problem with this thread is that I think we all have enough to
> do improving ourselves without looking at others and figuring out how to
> improve them.

Let us hope that that is the message we should all take from it!

Martin Stern

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:21:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

on 16/11/04 3:58 am, Anonymous wrote:

Subject: Lateness to Shul

> I have to ask myself, why I am killing myself to get up early and daven
> when Rabbis don't. One Rabbi gives me the excuse he is busy learning
> before davening and thats why he comes late and won't try and come on
> time.  It ruins my davening because I have to keep sweating it if I am
> going to have a minyan at all until the 10th arrives.

If there is no minyan, that is hardly the poster's fault. He will be
doing no worse than davenning privately at home. If, as I suspect from
his 'sweating', he may be an aveil and wishes to say kaddish, the answer
must be to go elsewhere until such time as this new minyan gets its act

> The last question I keep asking myself is when Rabbis care so little
> about halacha to intentionally come to shul late, why should I.
> Expecially when I just lost my job because I keep Shabbos.  If davening
> isn't important to them why should Shabbat be important to me?

Perhaps the poster should draw the said rabbis attention to the Gemara
which says that if HKBH comes to shul and does not find a minyan on
time, he becomes angry. If these rabbis won't accept this rebuke they
hardly deserve their title. What sort of example are they setting to

Martin Stern


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:15:38 -0500
Subject: May One Wish non Jews a Merry -mas?

>From: Michael Kahn
>As December 25th aproaches, I was wondering, may one wish a gentile
>collegue a Merry ....?

As opposed to what? Wishing them a horrible holiday?

Christians celebrate Christmas. Our recognition of this fact does not
imply that we accept the truth of their dogma or any other part of their
religion for ourselves. In fact these days I wonder how many Christians
accept the dogmas of Christianity. Nevertheless they continue to
celebrate the holiday. If you are afraid that by wishing anyone a Merry
Christmas someone might assume that you accept the validity of their
beliefs (a highly unlikely event in my opinion), just wish them a happy

A more troublesome aspect of this holiday, in my opinion, is the
"minhag" of gift-giving. When I worked in a large office the secretaries
and support staff all expected gifts. Buying these gifts requires active
participation in the holiday, and this always disturbed me. One year I
quietly rebelled and just ignored the "minhag". This generated so much
lashon hara about me that I vowed never to repeat my rebellion. In the
end I realized (rationalized?) that the giving of gifts carries no
religious message whatsoever in our days, and in this spirit I gave and,
I am quite certain, they received.

Let me be the first to wish all MJ'ers a Happy Chanukah!!--Bernie R.


End of Volume 45 Issue 71