Volume 45 Number 73
                    Produced: Thu Nov 18  6:11:34 EST 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

         [Avi Feldblum]
Coffee with non-Jews
         [Chana Luntz]
Giving out aliyot in advance (was: Lateness to shul)
         [Mike Gerver]
Introductions to Kiddish
         [Carl Singer]
On-Line Chart for Mishnayot Learning?
         [Aliza Berger]
Query re Shmuel Shraga Feigenzohn and _Sha`arei Homat
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
R. David Golinkin (7)
         [Janice Gelb, Naomi Graetz, Ari Trachtenberg, Etzion, Irwin
Weiss, Mordechai Horowitz, Avi Feldblum]
The Rambam's Tomb
Saying Thank You
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Smiting the Cheek & Lambs to the Slaughter
         [Shalom Carmy]
Tachanun after Shkia
         [Bill Bernstein]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:39:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia

In a recent Issue, I allowed the following response through:

> Mordechai Horowitz , writes: " Be aware of your sources women and  aliya.
> Be aware that David Golinkin is a conservative Rabbi and would not be
> considered a reliable source on this list."

There have been a number of responses to this, and I include just a few in
this issue, but I agree that I should have edited this response before
sending it to the list. I am of the opinion that it is valid to inform the
membership that the Responsa (and the associated web site) is from within
the Conservative movement. The last phrase should have been removed, so as
to allow individual members, based on their and their Rabbis positions, to
decide how they would treat the information and the Responsa.

Avi Feldblum


From: Chana Luntz <Chana@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:23:11 GMT
Subject: Coffee with non-Jews

Sorry I am behind in my mail-jewish reading:

<Shuanoach@...> writes:

>There was a discussion a while back about this - i just noticed in the
>sefer of hanhagot of the Ar"i by R. Jacob Zemach, Naggid
>u-Metzaveh,that he says on p. 93 of the jerusaLEM 1965 edition that the
>Ar"i said that coffee from non-Jews one should not drink because of
>bishulei goyim. [he gives the reason too].

Yes, Rav Ovadiah Yosef discusses it extensively in the teshuva I
referred to at the time of the discussion(Shu"t Yechaveh Daas Vol
4. #42).  As is usual for Rav Ovadiah he brings the full spectrum of
opinions, including the position of the Ari and the argument that in the
cafes of the Ishmaelim, where it is known they drink coffee all day,
there is a problem of bishul akum, but Rav Ovadya roundly rejects this
opinion stating "it is permitted to drink coffee of non Jews, and there
isn't in it any question of cooking of gentiles, and the achronim write,
that this was the simple minhag in all places".  Note he also has a
discussion there on how far one should follow the Ari in general, which
is worth reading.



From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:38:55 EST
Subject: Giving out aliyot in advance (was: Lateness to shul)

ELPh Minden writes, in v45n69,

      A long-time idea of mine is distributing eleeyes [calls to the
      torah] before the shatz starts, which might help at least on days
      when the torah is read.

and then proceeds to list some drawbacks to this idea.

I can mention another drawback, from recent personal experience, to any
distribution of aliyot in advance, at least when little cards are given
out to remind people of which aliyah they have. A few months ago, after
taking my shirt out of the washing machine, I discovered, in the pocket,
a little card that said "Revi'i" in Roman letters. I vaguely remembered
putting it there a long time before, but couldn't at first remember
when.  But since it was in Roman letters, I knew it must have been in
the US, and I had last been in the US about five months earlier. I
finally decided it must have been at a particular shul I had gone to on
Shabbat the last time I had been in the US. That city doesn't even have
an eruv, so I must have been carrying it in my pocket on Shabbat without
an eruv!  And it probably had gone through the laundry a few times (it
looked like it had) during the intervening months. Oy!

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:01:04 -0500
Subject: Introductions to Kiddish

There's a delightful gentlemen who graces our shule when visiting his
son.  If he leads the benching at Shalosh Seudos he begins, in Yiddish,
"Rabboysi, hair tza tsu" -- essentially, "gentlemen, listen up."  -- I
can translate but I can't convey the warmth of this message.

Unfortunately, a number of the introductories such as "savrei" to
kiddish are mumbled or said as if they are part of the kiddish as
opposed to what they are meant to be, an invitation to share in the

Carl Singer


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:13:31 +0200
Subject: On-Line Chart for Mishnayot Learning?

I'm looking for a signup chart for mishnayot learning for "shloshim" (30
days after death). Is one available online? Preferably, there should be
room for people to sign up for individual chapters, not just whole

Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: statistics-help.com


From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:56:51 +0200
Subject: Query re Shmuel Shraga Feigenzohn and _Sha`arei Homat

   In addition to the book mentioned in the title of this thread,
"Shafan ha-Sofer" was the type-setter for the Vilna Shas, and his name
appears on a history of this publishing project, six folio pages in
small print, that appears at the end of the Vilna Shas -- i.e., Masakhet

   As for the larger question (which relates to the underlying
assumptions of the perennial debate between "modern" and "rght-wing"
Orthodox): from what I know, in the 19th century there was no
black-and-white division between Maskilim and relgious. There was a
great deal of intellectual ferment in a place like the Volozhin
yeshivah.  There were rabbanim who used approaches that combined certian
aspects of secular edyaction and Torah, and others who militantly
opposed them.  Feigensohn fit in there somewhere.

    Yehonatan Chipman


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:09:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: R. David Golinkin

Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...> wrote:
> >R' David Golinkin.  "Aliyot for Women." Teshuvot Va'ad haHalakha 3.
> >English summary: http://www.responsafortoday.com/engsums/3_2.htm
> >Hebrew Original: http://www.responsafortoday.com/vol3/2.pdf
> Be aware that David Golinkin is a conservative Rabbi and would not be
> considered a reliable source on this list.

I don't think anyone on this list is going to base their halachic
practice on one of a series of teshuvot listed by a contributor. Just
because Rabbi Golinkin is Conservative does not mean that you cannot
benefit from the research and sources named in his teshuvot, even if you
don't agree with his reasoning or plan to follow his recommendations.

-- Janice

From: <graetz@...> (Naomi Graetz)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:03:59 +0530
Subject: R. David Golinkin

Are you stating that the sources that Rabbi David Golinkin refers
to in his teshuva are unreliable, or that Golinkin has a "conservative"
agenda which makes his use of these sources unreliable. Please
distinguish between the two. One can gratefully refer to the sources
which he has made accessible and then come to your OWN conclusions about
whether women should have aliyot or not.

Naomi Graetz, "Unlocking the Garden: A Feminist Jewish Look at the
Bible, Midrash and God. "
Ben Gurion University of the Negev

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:08:32 -0500
Subject: Re: R. David Golinkin

I don't think that you can speak for the list on the reliability of any
rabbi as a source, and I am surprised that Avi let it through.  It would
be more constructive for you to dispute his analysis, preferably with

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>

From: Etzion <atzion@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:09:44 +0200
Subject: R. David Golinkin

I always thought that one has to accept the truth from anyone! Check the
sources to see whether the quotes and deductions are correct.

From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:40:48 -0500
Subject: R. David Golinkin

Mordechai is correct in that it is certainly true that Rabbi Golinkin is
a Conservative Rabbi, and he is correct that list members should be
aware of this.  One should not follow the opinion of a Rabbi merely
because the term "Rabbi" precedes his name..  You can't, because there
are machloket (arguments) between Orthodox rabbanim on various issues of
Halacha.  However, R. Golinkin, who is well-educated and scholarly, is
certainly considered a reliable source by the Conservative Jews on this


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:38:42 -0500
Subject: R. David Golinkin

Part of the nature of halachic analysis is the authority of a source.
Everyone is not equal when it comes to legal thought. This is not just
limited to Jewish law.  If I have an opinion on the meaning of the
second amendment and a Supreme Court justice has an opinion, his (or
her) opinion is more relevant in determining the practical applicability
of the law. By virtue of his or her position as a Supreme Court Justice,
his or her opinion carries authority in a way my opinion as a lay person
cannot.  Even if I am more correct in theory, s/he will be more correct
in practice.

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004
Subject: R. David Golinkin

A few final (at least for this issue) on the comments, mostly as a list
member, but a little bit of my moderator hat as well.

First (and this is as moderator), correctness in practice - i.e. Halacha
L'maaseh - should NEVER be assumed from discussions on mail-jewish. That
is what your individual Rabbi / Posek is for.

Second, (and related to the one above) is that the request originally
was for sources on the topic. If R. Golinkin has pulled together a
set or subset of the sources, then the reference is valid. The two items
that people need to keep in mind, and this is true for any such response
to a request, is to what extent the sources constitute the full set vs a
selected subset, and how valid are the conclusions made based on the

Third, since this reference was given as being a Responsa, not just an
article of sources and analysis, it is valid to know what the
orientation of the Responsa and the target audience is. This helps the
individual determine what weight they wish to give it in their personal
choice of pratical application.

Avi Feldblum


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:06:09 EST
Subject: The Rambam's Tomb

Went to the kever of the Rambam today in Tipheria.  What a modern flame
over a medieval kever!  I think Aish Hatorah built it I wonder what the
Rambam would think!!!!  Rambam. The tourist attraction.

After doing a number of backroads in Eretz Ytisrael today, I can tell
tell you that the kabbalists lived in cities that literally hang in the
air. No wonder they were spiritual; if you look at the landscapes, it is
totally amazing!


From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:13:02 +0200
Subject: Re: Saying Thank You

    A "ma'aseh rav" on this one: I once brought mishloah manot to Rav
Soloveitchik ztz"l, and he said thank you. Implying, at the very least,
that it is not forbidden, and quote possibly proper, in terms of derekh
eretz, to thank someone who has performed a mitzvah from which you

     Jonathan Chipman


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:15:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Smiting the Cheek & Lambs to the Slaughter

See Isaiah 50 (which is a haftara).
See also Isaiah 53.


From: Bill Bernstein <billbernstein@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:20:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Tachanun after Shkia

I believe it is the minhag HaGra not to say tachanun during bein
hashmashos.  Also the minhag Jerushalmi.  At least that is what I
remember from Bet HaMedrash shul in Philadelphia, which has this minhag.

-Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.


End of Volume 45 Issue 73