Volume 45 Number 84
                    Produced: Tue Nov 23  5:34:47 EST 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Bodies of Tzadikim (2)
         [Gil Student, Shimon Lebowitz]
Late Friday invitations
         [Martin Stern]
Lateness to Shul (3)
         [Anonymous_2, Martin Stern, Martin Stern]
Lateness to Shul - symptoms, root causes and suggestions
Love (ehov)
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Proper decorem in a Beit Keneses
         [Saul Mashbaum]
Request to say Tehillim
         [Alex Heppenheimer]
Two Pairs of Teffilin
         [Mark Goldenberg]


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:00:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Bodies of Tzadikim

I go through some of the sources regarding whether tzadikim are
considered impure in chapter 3 of my book Can The Rebbe Be Moshiach? You
can download the PDF for free at www.MoshiachTalk.com.

I would also recommend the article on the subject by Prof. Israel
Ta-Shema, available for download here

Gil Student

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:10:01 +0200
Subject: Re:  Bodies of Tzadikim

One thing has been bothering me about this thread.

Weren't the impure people who needed Pesach Sheni (the "second chance"
to bring the Pesach sacrifice) recorded as being carriers of the bones
of Yosef ***Hatzaddik*** ?

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:11:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Late Friday invitations

on 22/11/04 11:38 am, Leah Perl Shollar <leahperl@...> wrote:

> I would like to respond to what I feel is not being dan lechaf zechus.
> As for Friday night invitations, it is quite possible that the wife
> needed to attend the mikve, and did not realize it would fall out this
> way when she accepted the invitation.

When I raised this point, I did not have in mind 'social' invitations
but students or other single people who could not make shabbat for
themselves.  Though I specified Friday night, the same applies to any
Shabbat or Yom Tov meal. We have not infrequently waited about half an
hour or more and then started without the guests who may have turned up
as we were serving the main course.

As regards female invitees who find they have to go to the mikveh, they
should inform their host in advance that they may be a little delayed
and that they should not wait to sing shalom aleichem and eishet chayil,
by which time they should have arrived. She would not have to explain
why she would be delayed and the host/hostess should have the courtesy
not to ask.

However the Friday night invitations that I mentioned were in the
summer, e.g. midsummer - daven at 7:30, make kiddush 8:30, when we would
probably have finished eating by nightfall at about 11:00, so she would
have to go to the mikveh after dinner in any case. One would have to be
dan bekhaf zechut gadol to excuse guests who came at 11:30!

Martin Stern


From: Anonymous_2
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:05:04
Subject: Lateness to Shul

     I've been keeping up with the postings about people getting to
shule late.  Let me say at the outset that I believe that lateness to
davening is between the person and Hashem (although it is beyond me how
someone can say "v'hashkamas bais hamedrash shacharis v'arvis" every
morning and consistently be late for davening, day in and day out).

     I'm also concerned by people who drive like maniacs to get to a
minyan on time.  While on citizen's patrol in our area, I see this all
the time.  People will drive the wrong way down a one way street.  Our
patrol's police officer frequently has to give out parking tickets to
those who block driveways or park illegally near a shule because they
were in such a rush to make a minyan.  I can't tell you how embarrassing
it is that a non-Jewish officer has to see this from frum Jews.  I would
love to tell these people that they should either leave the house
earlier or attend a later minyan.  (Yes, B"H, our city has minyanim
through very late hours.)

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:21:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

on 22/11/04 11:38 am, Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...> wrote:

>> From: Minden <phminden@...>
>> Chiyoovem are a minneg, not a din. Would it be allowed for the board
>> or the rabbi to issue a takone [decree] saying people lose their chiyuv?
> We do not let someone who comes in after Ashrei to lead Shacharit.

We are a little more flexible, allowing an aveil to lead Shacharit, so
long as he has put on his tallit and tefillin, either at Barukh She'amar
or Yishtabach. I suppose that we might allow him to take over at the
second Ashrei (I presume Harry meant the first one!) as is the custom in
some shuls when there are two aveilim present.

At minchah, of course, he will have lost the right to be shats if he
comes in after Ashrei!

> People coming late is very frustrating, esepcially in small shul.  We
> have had to skip the early Kadishes because we still did not have a
> minyan. How many people will show up late to work on a regular basis?
> How many of these people will show up late to a movie, a concert or a
> sporting event?  If they get a ticket, how many will show up late to
> court?  Is G-d of such a low level that people don't feel He is worth it
> to show up on time?

They are showing a lack of communal responsibility quite apart from
disrespect for HKBH.

Martin Stern

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:31:30 +0000
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

on 22/11/04 12:01 pm, Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...> wrote:

>> Chas VeShalom to think that Rav Moshe would condone someone disturbing
>> someone else's Kavanah - regardless of the reason. I may not fulfill my
>> "Ben Adam LeMakom" at the expense of my "Ben Adam LeChavaro"
>> (There is a well known story that Rav Moshe was called out of the Beis
>> Medresh for an important phone call that he needed to take, but refused to
>> pass in front of someone who was davening Shemone Esrei.)
> I believe that story is a Bein Adam laMakom story, not leChaveiro at
> all. The prohibition of passing in front of someone praying is because
> of haShem's presence there, and exists even when the person in question
> doesn't mind or is oblivious to your passing (e.g. with eyes closed).

There is also a din that one cannot sit within 4 amot of someone
davenning shemonei esrei. These are based on the same consideration that
the Shechinah is in front of him. When someone comes late and does not
'catch up' by missing parts of pesukei dezimra but opts, rather to start
his shemonei esrei with chazarat hashats, he thereby inconveniences
those who may wish to sit down for some reason. Even if he does not wait
that long he can still not have completed his shemonei esrei until well
after the other mitpallelim who may therefore be unable to step back if
he is immediately behind them.

Martin Stern


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:30:50
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul - symptoms, root causes and suggestions

Carl Singer quotes Mordechai as saying

>people have not addressed another, very important angle of this issue -
>namely that chronic lateness to Shul is a symptom of a deeper and very
>serious problem - namely that many people have no or little 'geshmak'
>(enjoyment, fulfillment) in davening.  ....

and asks

>Has davening gotten too long ...  Or has our "modern clock" become so
>tightly wound that 3 or 4 hours spent davening (Shabbos Schaharis)
>seems too long

whereas Tzvi Stein says

>often it's not just individual "divine services" that they don't think
>much of, but the whole concept of Yiddishkeit/frumkeit/Hashem, etc,
>which is an even deeper problem.

I must admit that I am one of those people that is usually 15-20 minutes
late on a shabbos morning and I have to admit that I do not get much
fulfillment in davening. It would be easy to condemn this as a symptom
of a deeper malaise but just think a moment. Is there not something very
odd about davening? There is so much stuff to get through. Can anyone
really take concentrate on all those words that they are saying day in
day out? Is it really possible to read all of it in the time alloted let
alone really appreciate it?  For myself, this has nothing to do with my
Hebrew skills. I have been in Yeshivah and away from pressures of time
and that has not made hours spent on rapid or even not so rapid
recitation any more meaningful. I am aware of the various functions of
different parts of tefilloh (prayer). It just ceases to mean anything
when there is so much of it. Comparisons with appointments with Royalty
do not help. I have never had a regular appointment with the Queen but
if I did I would not spend it muttering the same tens of pages of text
and I am unconvinced that all this davening is really what Hashem wants.
I accept that there are those who find the rapid recitation of so much
material meaningful but there are plenty of us that do not. With some of
this might be symptomatic of 'an even deeper problem' but I do not think
that it is fair to make that assumption.


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:10:02 +0200
Subject: Re: Love (ehov)

>         Yaakov was clearly romantically in love with Rachel, from
> first sight.  He kisses her before he knows she is his cousin.

Maybe *she* didn't know who *he* was, but he definitely knew: "He said
to them, "Do you know Lavan son of Nachor?", and they said "We do". He
asked "How is he?", and they said "He is well, and here is his daughter
Rachel, coming with the sheep".  Bereishit 29:5-6 - *very* freely
translated. :-)

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:01:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Proper decorem in a Beit Keneses

Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 45 #81

>the kedusha of a Beis Keneses is greater even than that of a Beis

In principle, the kedushah of a beit midrash is greater than that of a
beit knesset. This is stated explicitly by the Rambam, Hilchot Tefilla
11:14, and implicitly by the Mechaber SA OH 153:1.  This is derived from
the gemara Megilla 26b-27a.

Saul Mashbaum


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:46:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Request to say Tehillim

In MJ 45:81, Anonymous commented on a request to say Tehillim for a Jew
who was stabbed in Antwerp. (Tragically, events have overtaken this
posting; this Reb Moshe Yitzchak now needs mishnayos for his soul rather
than tehillim for his recovery.)

>> Please say tehillim for Moshe Yitzchak ben Basya Chaya Sara.  He
>> is in critical condition.  (And a 27 yr old father of 5 kids).
> I respectfully take exception to Leah's attempt to justify the
> need with respect to the parental status of the victims.  Would
> her plea that we should say tehillim be equally urgent if the
> victims were middle-aged, single people, or even married people,
> without children? Is it less tragic when nonparental, and
> especially nonmarried, adults are struck down?  Can anyone
> identify halachic sources that differentiate individuals'
> worthiness of their fellow Jews' care based on whether they are
> children or adults, or on whether or not adults have reproduced?

I don't think it's a question of "worthiness" but of empathy. Not all of
us are on the level of the Rebbe (the name escapes me now) who, when his
son was seriously ill, was saddened that his chassidim showed more
concern for his son than for anyone else's sick child.  How many of us
on this list knew Reb Moshe Yitzchak well enough to summon up heartfelt
kavanah on his behalf? The fact that there are little children involved
(the man was 27 years old, so his children must all be very young) makes
it easier to empathize with, and therefore to daven more fervently for,
someone who lives half a world away and whom we would probably never
have met.

May Hashem help us to have only simchas in the future!

Kol tuv,


From: <GOLDDDS@...> (Mark Goldenberg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:24:45 EST
Subject: Re: Two Pairs of Teffilin

      Just out of curiosity, how did they center two teffilin shel rosh
      simultaneously?  One on top of the other?

One Shel Rosh was behind the other Shel Rosh.

      Also, how did they place two shel yads while keeping them in the
      middle half of the arm?  Finally, what did they do with two straps
      at their hands?

The Shel Yad was covered up with their sleeves and talis, so it wasn't

Mark Goldenberg DDS


End of Volume 45 Issue 84