Volume 45 Number 91
                    Produced: Thu Nov 25 12:01:03 EST 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Carrying weapons on Shabbos and Yom Tov (4)
         [Carl Singer, Jill Shames, Israel Caspi, Frank Silbermann]
Coming late to Shule
         [Frank Reiss]
Kosher Megilla Reading
         [Batya Medad]
Lateness to Shul
         [Joel Rich]
Ramban and Nida
         [Martin Stern]
Two pair of Tefillin
         [Abie Zayit]


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:16:22 -0500
Subject: Carrying weapons on Shabbos and Yom Tov

From: Bill Bernstein <billbernstein@...>
>On a very different site devoted to firearms I got into a discussion
>with someone on carrying concealed weapons in Shabbos and Yom Tov
>(obviously there are a number of Jews on the boards).  It was my
>impression that carrying on Shabbos was obviously forbidden, based on
>Shulchan Oruch OC 301:7.  But it should also be forbidden on Yom Tov
>because of muktzeh and because it does not fall in the category of
>"ochel nefesh."  I think we are agreed that carrying in a makom sakana
>should not be an issue but here we are disagreeing on carrying under
>normal circumstances in, say, Tennessee, which is a pretty safe place,
>relative to some others.  But that is only relatively speaking and I
>personally carry concealed weapons during the week.

I'm not paskening (I'll leave that to others.)  But I believe there is
an issue of tzarich Yom Tov -- is what you're carrying a necessity for
your Yom Tov.  Even something benign like say, a paper clip, must pass
that same test.

Carl Singer

From: Jill Shames <jillsensei@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:55:06 +0200
Subject: RE: Carrying weapons on Shabbos and Yom Tov

The source Bill cites in the Shulchan Oruch discusses the problem of
wearing a weapon when one goes out on Shabbat. The concern here is that,
even though some weapons are generally considered ornamental, these are
"ornaments" that are removed and replaced fairly frequently; therefore
one might come to remove and carry them in reshut harabim on Shabbat.

Are there any sources prohibiting the manipulation of weapons in reshut
hayachid that define the problem as "muktzeh" rather than a concern
about possible violation of "m'taltalin"?

J. Shames

From: Israel Caspi <icaspi@...>
Subject: Carrying weapons on Shabbos and Yom Tov

I know many religious people in Israel -- myself included -- who carry
weapons on Shabbat and Yom Tov (without regard to the existence of an
eruv).  The rationale is that if there is an element of sakana which
makes it necessary/advisable to carry during the week, then the same
element of sakana makes it equally necessary/advisable (and therefore
permissible) to carry a weapon on Shabbat and Yom Tov.

In Israel -- at least outside of the chareidi community -- carrying
personal weapons to and in the synagogue on Shabbat or Yom Tov is
accepted as being within the bounds of normative behavior.  I don't know
if there is a formal p'sak on the subject but I have never heard that
any Rav has ever chastised anyone for doing so.

--Israel Caspi

From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:57:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Carrying weapons on Shabbos and Yom Tov

I asked an analogous question in spring of 2002, discussed in MLJ volume
36 #15-17.  Only to keep the discussion on a halachic basis, I asked
about a person highly allergic to bee stings carrying an adrenalyne
injection first-aid kit on Yom Tov and (where an eruv is available) on
Shabbas -- even though a bee sting was very unlikely on any given day.
The general consensus was that the person should not be discouraged from
carrying it.

Later, I found an authoritative analysis specifically about carrying
firearms on Shabbas and Yom Tov at:


Below is an excerpt:

"Regarding the question whether a firearm is `muktzah', Rabbi Shlomo
Goren, the first Chief Rabbi of the Army, and later the Chief Rabbi of
Israel, explains in his book, `Mashiv Milchamah', that regarding Shabbat
observance, a firearm is no different than a Kiddush cup, and a holster
is no different than a decorative spread used to cover the challah
loaves.  He maintains that a firearm is something that is needed for
Shabbat observance, because it is intended for security, enabling a Jew
to celebrate the Shabbat in peace.  Even though shooting a gun is a form
of igniting fire, something normally prohibited on Shabbat, in
situations where life is imperiled, shooting a gun is a mtizvh.'

"Rabbi Goren states, `Behold, a firearm is meant for firing since it is
a mitzvah to shoot both on weekdays or Shabbat, in instances when needed
for self-defense or for attacking the enemy.  And it is not meant for
non-security uses (like sport or hunting) so why should it be considered
an object that is forbidden on Shabbat?'

"What Rabbi Yehoshua Neurvert writes in his treatise on Shabbat,
`Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchatah', differs somewhat in his understanding,
stating that a firearm is indeed categorized as `muktzah' since firing
(ignited fire) is prohibited on Shabbat.  Nonetheless, he rules that
carrying a firearm on Shabbat is allowed since it has a definite value
as a deterrent -- discouraging enemies from attacking Jews on Shabbat.
Therefore, it is needed for the observance of Shabbat.  Furthermore,
since carrying a firearm is a deterrent, there is no need for immediate
danger in order to carry one.  When the enemies of the Jews know that we
are ready to defend ourselves, mobs are less likely to rise up against

"(It is important to note that these rulings apply to communities where
there is an `eruv', a legal halachic enclosure, which permits carrying
objects on Shabbat.)"

I assume that what is permitted on Shabbas within an eruv is also
permitted on Yom Tov with or without an eruv.

Frank Silbermann        New Orleans, Louisiana          <fs@...>


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Coming late to Shule

> From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
> I would imagine that habitual latecomers to Shul probably feel that they
> aren't missing anything by coming late.  The question to ask such people
> is whether they would arrive late at the cinema/theatre/theater.
> Similarly, one could ask someone who chats during davenning whether they
> would hold a conversation in the cinema."

This is not it at all. You cannot compare the cinema to this. I have
started coming late because it is too painful to sit in Shule so long. I
am still suffereing over 2 years now w/ severe financial difficulties. I
have had some rough times w/ being frum at this time.

One morning while I was at home I started to smash my Teffilin, and
siddur, out of frustration of course. This went on for a few days. I
wish some of you would understand that many of us are not being helped
by the Hashem that you might be so greatful to. So it makes it hard to
sit there and ask Hashem to help me get a job.How many hours am I
supposed to do this? So I try to get there right before the Torah
reading. It is not that I am lazy. I am awake but feel worse in my
predicament by being in Shule so much.

When I had a life, I did go to Shule much earlier.

Please some of you try to be aware that the world is not as simple as
you might think.



From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:33:30 +0200
Subject: Kosher Megilla Reading

Two points:

1- kosher megilla reading

I'm one of those people who miss hearing words because of the noise, so
I look for quiet dignified readings.

The big problem is the echo effect.  Those, both adults and kids, who
aren't reading along start their noise after they hear others, and it
goes on and on, long after the baal koreh resumes reading.  Now if we're
supposed to hear every word, obviously even in Israel where people
understand the language this isn't being done.

 From Rosh chodesh Adar (bet this year), people should be educated about
the importance of hearing every word; there is no mitzvah to make noise.
If you're in the position to start something new, two things.  One, a
"traffic controller" who will raise a sign saying Haman when the name is
read, and make it forbidden to make noise when the sign is down, with
gabbaim taking people out, even if the reading is stopped for a minute.
Once or twice and people will get the message.  Also, have the students
make protest signs against Haman, as if for a political demonstration,
and have them raise their signs, instead of making noise.

2-Tehilim for
Maybe it's better just to mention the name and add that details or more
information can be gotten from sender.



From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:30:12 EST
Subject: Re: Lateness to Shul

      The issue about lateness to shul therefore is not about keeping
      HKBH waiting (assuming you are well within the halachic
      constraints of zmanei tephila), but a) keeping the other people
      waiting who want to get started and are getting fractious; or b)
      of disturbing people who have already gotten started (similar to
      coming in late to the shabbas meal).

and also about tfila btzibur/tfilat hatzibbur
Joel Rich


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:09:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Ramban and Nida

on 24/11/04 10:49 am, Chana Luntz at <Chana@...> wrote:

> Note that the whole question of the days of nida and days of ziva gets
> one into a very complex area.  There is in fact a maklokus between the
> Rambam and other rishonim regarding how one counts the days of ziva
> and nida (according to the Rambam, it is almost impossible to know
> whether one is in the days of nida or the days of ziva, because one
> has to keep track of the count going from the day of a girl's very
> first period, when she is 12 or so) and how easy it is to get back on
> track.

Perhaps someone can explain how the Rambam understands the Mishnah and
Gemara in Arachin 8 a/b which seems to explain how a woman can establish
her status (which the Rambam seems to accept since he codifies it in
Issurei Biah 8.22). He also seems to contradict his opinion in Issurei
Biah 6.6 in 8.21. Also Chana has unfortunately omitted one aspect of the
Rambam's position in 6.6 which makes it much easier to work out her
status: a woman starts the 7/11 cycle again after childbirth. As far as
I am aware nobody else agrees with the Rambam's opinion in 6.6 and it is
more than likely that the opinion there, though it seems perfectly
clear, has been misunderstood.  Should it be necessary to rule the
halachah in practice, I expect that the poskim will be set aside.

Since women do not keep records of the 7/11 cycle, they are all safek
zavot gedolot nowadays though I doubt if there are many women with
cycles of less than 16 days, so it is a remote safek. Also one should
remember that a ketem (stain) does not count min haTorah for these
purposes, only a flow that is felt by the woman.

As regards the korban, the poskim will presumably rule that every woman,
before eating terumah or kodshim or entering the Beit HaMikdash, will
have to bring one pair of birds. This is not a problem since the olah
(burnt offering) can always be brought al tenai, that if she does not
require it it should be a donation, and a chatat ha'of (bird sin
offering), unlike the regular chatat (sin offering), can be brought al
tenai and is simply not eaten.

Martin Stern


From: <oliveoil@...> (Abie Zayit)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:18:59 +0000
Subject: Two pair of Tefillin

Ira Jacobson wrote:
>>The Hazon Ish in his middle age starting using two pairs of tefillin.

I cannot restrain myself from sharing the story related by the Chafetz
Chaim's son that appears in "Kol Kisvei Chafetz Chaim Hashalem" Vol. III

Rav Aryeh Leib HaCohen reports that his father, the Chafetz Chaim,
purchased Rabbenu Tam Tefillin in his old age while living in the
Ukraine. Rav Aryeh Leib assumed that this was because the Chafetz Chaim
had moved into a Chassidic community and did not want to behave
differently than the accepted custom.  Upon asking him, however, the
Chafetz Chaim said that it was because of the newly discovered
Yerushalmi on Tractate Menachot (!) which clearly recorded that the
correct Tefillin were to be arranged like Rabbenu Tam.

Rav Aryeh Leib then continues in parentheses that by that time it had
become common knowledge that the newly discovered Jerusalem Talmuds were
forgeries, and his father had reluctantly accepted that
fact. Nevertheless he continued wearing Rabbenu Tam Tefillin until his

If you do not have access to the Kol Kisvei Chafetz Chaim, Rav Aryeh
Leib's comment is quoted verbatim in Professor Daniel Sperber's
"Minhagei Yisrael" Vol. III footnote #12 on pages 16 - 17.

Abie Zayit


End of Volume 45 Issue 91