Volume 46 Number 06
                    Produced: Thu Dec  2 22:51:25 EST 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Coming late to minyan
Cost of Simchas
         [Carl Singer]
Davening at Home
         [Tzvi Stein]
Expecting Perfection (was lateness to shul)
         [Martin Stern]
Gabbai-related information
         [Tomer Shiloach]
         [Carl Singer]
Men displacing women in the women's section of the shule
         [Carl Singer]
Men in the Women's Section
Men in Women's Section
         [Martin Stern]
         [Joel Rich]
Skipping parts of Tefilah
         [Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]
Why single out the Emoree?
         [Martin Stern]


From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:09:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Coming late to minyan

Why should one be given "benefit-of-doubt" (domeh zchav zechus) if they
habitually come more than 10 minutes late? If circumstances are such
that they are repeatable then either do something to alieve the
situation or don't come at all.

How can one be bored by the davening during the week?

How can one use "boredom" as an excuse to be late? Come on time and do
some learning before Barchu . Same thing if you find all those praying
words unbearable. Come on time.

I feel one of the best things I learned in High School was in 10th grade
when a student stated to the Rebbi that he didn't feel so lucky to be
Jewish and didn't appreciate the brocha of not being made a goy. The
Rebbi said "So skip it and say the rest". Sometimes one's frame of mind
should probably lead one to skip tefilla or do a very abridged version.



From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:30:01 -0500
Subject: Cost of Simchas

Some communities (and / or community leaders) have taken steps to set
guidelines or limits on acceptable spending (etc.) for simchas.  I'd be
interested in hearing from others what's currently being done in this
vein and how well it's working.

Having the luxury not necessarily of great wealth, but of great freedom
to ignore the "Jones", my wife and I have done what we have wanted to
re: bar mitzvahs and wedding (only one so far.)  We scaled down to suit
our desires, including a milchig bar mitzvah luncheon for one son
(during the 3 weeks) and an afternoon wedding (hey -- everyone was able
to stay for sheva brochus instead of running off at 10:30PM w/o communal
benching (and before the "Viennese Table" makes its majestic

On the other hand I believe that people have a right to make their own
decisions, even if we don't agree with them.  I had a neighbor who had a
luxurious bar mitzvah for his son -- fancy hotel, catered meal, band,
deli counter, etc. -- but to share his simcha he also wrote a new Sefer
Torah for our shule.

Carl Singer


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:59:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Davening at Home

> Several years ago, a friend of mine with several daughters proudly told
> me that his oldest girl asked if he wore tefillin since she never saw
> him wearing them at home as he was very careful to always daven with a
> minyan in shul.

My kids never see me davening at home either.  We have these things in
our house called "doors" that kids can't see through.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:36:15 +0000
Subject: Re: Expecting Perfection (was lateness to shul)

on 29/11/04 3:06 am, Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...> wrote:
> But I think Martin Stern is being a bit strict:
>> If these rabbis won't accept this rebuke they hardly deserve their
>> title. What sort of example are they setting to others?
> Certainly we all understand that rabbis are first and foremost role
> models. And we should be choosing rabbis (especially those that will
> teach our children) that are effective and appropriate role models. But
> until I can find the perfect people to select (they are in somewhat
> short supply) shouldn't I use those that are honestly trying and
> honestly imperfect?

I can well understand Binyomin's point but the rabbi in question was
quoted as saying that he wouldn't try and come on time. This effectively
makes him a meizid (deliberate sinner) and as such hardly deserves the

> It seems to smack of hubris to suggest that - barring a personal
> relationship (like parent or rebbe) that gives me the responsibility - I
> have the right to tell someone else what specific flaw they should be
> fixing, when presumably I have my own flaws to fix. "Let he who is
> without sin..." so to speak.

This last quotation is a Christian concept completely alien to Jewish
tradition which considers kol Yisrael areivim zeh bazeh - all Jews are
responsible for one another - which obliges us to rebuke our fellow if
we can do so in an effective manner, something which is very difficult
in practice. Since "there is no righteous person in the world who does
not sin" accepting Binyomin's suggestion means that no one can object to
any evil doing whatsoever.

Martin Stern


From: Tomer Shiloach <tshilo12@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:35:55 -0600
Subject: RE: Gabbai-related information

I have recommended to the gentleman who requested information about
Gabbai-related software, that he join the Gabbaim yahoogroup.  If there
are other gabbaim out there who are unaware of this list, perhaps they
will benefit from a general announcement: There is a yahoo group for
Gabbaim, which can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gabbai/ ...
Hopefully this information will be useful to someone else out there as
well.  Kol tov.  -t

Travis Krueger
webmaster Temple Sholom, Eau Claire


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:15:40 -0500
Subject: Lateness

I'm not ready to buy the concept that only certain parts of davening
"count" and that because one comes in time for those parts they are not
late.  A synagogue is a social organism -- we make social contracts with
each other -- whether it's to pay dues, to volunteer to rake the leaves
off the front lawn or to help make a minyan.  When there is no minyan or
when the minyan is delayed due to lateness, a social contract has been

I, for one, certainly have greater enjoyment living among, davening
with, working with people who meet these types of commitments.  After
limited attempts to address the problem of missed commitments (discuss,
teach, kiruv, etc.) I decide that "it's their problem" and try to avoid
such people.  Life is too short.

Carl Singer


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:08:42 -0500
Subject: Men displacing women in the women's section of the shule

I've been chewing on the following posting as it's yet another example
of brashness or chutzpah displacing proper behavior:

    Some years ago when I would come late (as was my wont.... but that is
    another thread, isn't it?) to the weekday minyan in my shul, I would
    find a woman praying outside because she would not walk in to the
    occupied "women's section". Occupied by men of course.

I think the woman did properly by asking a gentleman to intercede on her
behalf -- but since that failed, and the men did not move, I believe she
should have entered the women's section and continued davening.  The men
would then have had to move in order to continue with their davening.

Carl Singer


From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:24:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Men in the Women's Section

> Another aspect is the "mokon kavuah," regular place for dovening.
> It's considered preferable to always doven in the same place, so it's
> peculiar for men to want to doven in the ezrat nashim.

Some men and men at some times prefer some solitude.



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:14:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Men in Women's Section

on 29/11/04 11:36 am, Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...> wrote:

> Martin Stern said that a reason for a man to daven in the women's section is:
>> There may be times when a man may have to daven
>> there, for example if he has a slight gastro-intestinal infection and
>> fears that he may have to go to the toilet (bathroom in US) at frequent
>> intervals, which might disturb others.
> If one has stomach problems as bad as that, I believe he is Patur (not
> obligated) to wear tephillin.

Who said anything about tefillin? On the one hand, he may not be so ill
as to be patur from them but, even if he were, he might still be able to
partake in tefillah betsibbur apart from the necessary visits to the

Martin Stern


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:04:41 EST
Subject: Re: Seating

      but your obligation to your makom kavua needs to be balanced
      against the severe prohibition against embarrassing your fellow
      man in public.

Consult your LOR-I believe any seat within 4 amot of your "makom" can
still be considered your makom

Joel Rich

PS This ties in nicely with the lateness thread - if you come a few
minutes before tfila begins you rarely have to worry about this issue
PPS is there such a thing as a once a week(eg Shabbat AM ) makom


From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:34:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Skipping parts of Tefilah

Martin Stern wrote:
> These earlier parts can, in emergency situations, be abbreviated if
> someone is delayed.

With regard to "emergency situations":

I know no source, but I had understood a few to take the position that
the complete order of the prayers should always be followed regardless
of lateness (that is, that keeping to the specific order is valued above
praying along with the congregation), while most take the contrary
position that only certain minimal parts should be said in order to pray
along with the congregation.

I had not heard that the *reason* one was late played any part in
determining what one should do; can you say any more about this?


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:38:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Why single out the Emoree?

on 29/11/04 11:36 am, c.halevi <c.halevi@...> wrote:

> Whenever we are forbidden to emulate non-Jewish conduct, the prohibition
> is called "darchay haEmoree (the ways of the Emorites.)"
> [skip]
> Why then do we single out the Emoree as an example of ways
> to shun?

Darkhei haEmori means 'superstitious practices', i.e. ones which have no
rational foundation, as opposed to avodah zarah mamash. Perhaps the
answer is that the Emorim were less objectionable in their practices
than the other nations but that they still had many irrational
practices. It may be to emphasise that even these are prohibited that
their name has been singled out.

Martin Stern


End of Volume 46 Issue 6