Volume 46 Number 45
                    Produced: Sun Jan  2 11:07:24 EST 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Being asked to be Ba'al Tefilah
         [Joel Rich]
Bread At Seudah Shlishith
         [Shoshana Ziskind]
Chatzizah for tfilin
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
         [Aliza Fischman]
late to shul, shidduchim
         [Tzvi Stein]
late to shul vs. work
         [Tzvi Stein]
Learning during Davening
         [Aharon A. Fischman]
Pareve Cheesecake
         [Mike Gerver]
Refusal to Grant Aliyot
         [Yisrael Medad]
Smoking Ban
         [Bill Bernstein]
Synagogue Without Women's Section
         [Yisrael Medad]
Third Shabbat Meal
         [Nathan Lamm]


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:40:57 EST
Subject: Re: Being asked to be Ba'al Tefilah

> 2- I was once shown an interesting Halacha (in a reliable source,
> probably Mishna B'rura) by a thitherto irritated Gabai. The requirement
> to decline at first does not apply when the request to take the Amud
> issues from the Gabai (as opposed to whom? good question, I'm not sure,
> but certainly - at least - as opposed to general urging from 'the Olam'
> at an ad hoc Minyan. I do not know how to accurately define at what
> point one is or is not considered a Gabai). >>

Actually the language of the shulchan aruch is "adam gadol" ( = a great
person), and even then there's some doubt.  I guess your gabbai
qualified as one.

Joel Rich


From: Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:09:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Bread At Seudah Shlishith

On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:50 PM, Binyamin Lemkin <docben10@...> 
> Over the years I've noted that some will eat mezonoth at seudah
> shlishith instead of bread. I spoke recently with Rav David Bar
> Hayim(www.torahlight.com or www.halachaonline.com) and he said that
> all three seudoth are equally important and require bread. Does
> anybody know what those who do otherwise base themselves on?

I'm curious as well. I just know that Lubavitch minchag is not to wash
for Seudah Shlishis but to have something like you have at a kiddush
(mezonus, salad, fruit, fish.)  (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)  In
fact I went to a bar mitzvah where most of the family was Lubavitch but
there was one family who wasn't Lubavitch and a lot of the ladies were
gathered at the baal simcha's house and only this one lady who isn't
Lubavitch washed. (I ended up washing too to keep her company but I
almost never wash)

Shoshana Ziskind


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:00:25 -0500
Subject: Chatzizah for tfilin

FWIW, I did the preperatory studies for my Bar-mitzva with Rabbi
Yehoshua Neuwirth of Jerusalem, who later became well-known as the
author of the Shemiras Shabbos K'Hilchato.

When learning this issue of Chatzizoh, I asked him very specifically how
long my hair could be before it would be considered a problem with
Tefilin, and he answered "Sheyagia l'meter tishal oti od paam", when it
reaches the length of a meter ( about 3 feet) ask me again.

Obviously, this was much more of an issue back then, when I actually HAD

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Aliza Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:12:50 -0500
Subject: RE: GoDaven

Perets Mett wrote: 

>I think this is a wonderful enterprise and Dr Yosi Fishkin deserves a
>heart shkoyekh for all the time and effort he invests in it. On more
>than one occasion, when I have asked a visitor to our shul how he found
>out about it, I have been informed that it is due to the shul's listing
>on the GoDaven web site. Without the web site, these visitors may well
>have had to daven without a minyon or at a time that did not suit them.

I have recommended www.godaven.com to many, many people who have asked
where to find a minyan while traveling.  All have told me what a
wonderful resource it is!  Of course, it never hurts to double check
that the shul hasn't changed it's minyan time last minute, but
www.godaven.com really is very good and reliable.

Perets, I hope you don't mind that I forwarded your "hearty shkoyekh" to
Yosi, as he is a friend.

Aliza Fischman


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:12:05 -0500
Subject: Re: late to shul, shidduchim

> Let me put it another way: Suppose this person was going with somebody
> and someone inquired from you about him. Wouldnt it be slanderous to
> say that this person comes late to minyan. Rather we should simply say
> that he is one of those rare individuals who goes to shule every day.

Yes! As I've said before, the irony of this situation of criticizing and
slandering people who you see coming late to shul all the time is that
the people who *never* even *go* to shul (at least not on weekdays)
would get off scot free from this criticism, since no one would ever see
them and think bad things about them.  If they would think about those
people, they would just assume that they daven at another shul.  I think
that's very unfair and that's my prime reason for saying to lay off this
type of criticism, especially in regards to shidduchim.


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:13:50 -0500
Subject: Re: late to shul vs. work

I don't think it's an apt comparison to compare if people are on time at
work vs. shul and to say if they're on time for work but not shul, that
means they place less importance to shul vs. work.  A person is not on
time for work because they consider work important or because they
respect work.  They are on time to avoid losing their parnassa, nothing
more, nothing less.


From: Aharon A. Fischman <afischman@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:24:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Learning during Davening

Shmuel Carit <cshmuel@...> wrote

>Apparently the davening is soooo very boring these days that the paper
>mills are making a killing by printing all those shabbat parsha sheets.
>My experience is that you walk into shul on shabbat and you simply must
>take a healthy handful so you can read some great stories or a good vort
>or the latest from R' Aviner or R' Rozen... etc etc
>Anything but focus on the davening.

I used to print out divrei torah, but now I learn through Nach or
Mishnayot.  Not dealing with the issue of long or boring tefila, I find
that if my nose is in a sefer or printed divrei torah during chazarat
hashatz or between aliyot there is less of a likelyhood that someone
will talk with me.

Aharon A. Fischman


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:34:41 EST
Subject: Pareve Cheesecake

Mark Steiner, describing pareve cheesecake in v46n39, writes

      Honestly, I think it tastes better than the real thing!  And it is
      much lighter, too.

You're contradicting yourself! "Light" cheesecake, whether pareve or
milchig, might make your conscience feel better, but, at least in my
opinion, there's no way it tastes better than the heavy cheesecake,
densely packed with cream cheese, that my mother used to bake, and that
bakeries used to sell, when I was growing up in New York in the 1950s
and early 1960s. I have yet to find a bakery in Israel that sells
anything like it. Probably just as well.

Mike Gerver (trying to eat more sensibly)
Raanana, Israel


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:55:53 +0200
Subject: Refusal to Grant Aliyot

Re: David Charlap writing:-
> ...but heavy-handed tactics (like
> demanding money for admission, or publicly snubbing those who don't pay
> up) is just as likely to cause the person to go daven somewhere else, or
> by himself, or not at all.

let's get back to the original posting of mine and not carried away.  i
was relating to a case where the schule's Annual General Meeting voted
on a certain sum of money (a democratic vote), and the person never
asked for special discounts but simply ingored the requests for payment
of properly authorized membership dues.

oh, and Para. 150, in my last posting was referring to Shulchan Arukh,
OH 150:1.  sorry for that.  and btw, the Ba'er Heiteiv there notes that
the the Maharam Padwa considered dues for a building fund should be per
person and not per family.

Yisrael Medad


From: Bill Bernstein <billbernstein@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:33:47 -0600
Subject: Re: Smoking Ban

Several posts have been made on banning smoking.  I want to take the
opposite side that they should not ban smoking in general.  It is
obvious beyond any shadow of a doubt that a certain level of smoking is
harmful, the level most "smokers" get to pretty quickly in their
addiction.  This information is so widespread that smokers (and others)
routinely *overstate* their chances of getting lung cancer (about 10%,
in fact), although there are many many ill effects beyond lung cancer.
Do we need rabbis to tell us something that is widely known and has been
for 40 years?  What would the benefit of a rabbinic ban be?  How many
people are more likely to listen to their rabbi than their doctor in
matters of health?  I cannot imagine that if major rabbis promulgated a
ban on smoking then the habit would cease from the Orthodox world.
Perhaps this is why it hasnt happened.

Further, a ban sets a bad precedent.  Obesity is a much more serious
health threat in the general populace than smoking (i.e. many more
people are obese than smoke).  Should rabbis issue a ban on obesity?  If
so, there is no end to it.

More, has there ever been a ban on behavior because of health reasons
that was widely followed?  The list of things found in the Rambam is
interesting in part because no one does this.

I do not see any benefit that would come from a ban.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN
Quit smoking Jan 1991.


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:04:48 +0200
Subject: Synagogue Without Women's Section

As for Aliza Berger's posting, Synagogue Without Women's Section,
although usually very lenient personally on inter-gender questions,
(clarificatione here: I am not a Rabbi so I wouldn't even deign to
submit my thooughts as psak), the location and layout of that synagogue,
which I have used numerous times during my two Kaddish periods for my
late parents, o"h, would mitigate against a women's section.  The
corridor leading to it and the very small area, without the possibility
of a tzniusdik entrance for women, is problematic.  Maybe a cordoned-off
section by the door is the best situation at present unless it is

But if anyone is really looking for a mechitzah-area to establish, why
not try the Zoharei Chama synagogue complex in Machaneh Yehudah.  There
are at least four minyanim in different rooms there for Mincha and
another three upstairs for Maariv.  That would be a formidable task.

Yisrael Medad


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:40:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Third Shabbat Meal

Binyamin Lemkin's question about people not eating a full meal at
Shalosh Seudos brings to mind a question I've long had: Is it possible
that, in fact, there really isn't an extra meal on Shabbat at all?
Consider that the standard in Chazal's time was two meals a day, what we
would call "lunch" (or, better, "brunch") and "supper." Even if there
were only two every day of the week, there would still be three on
Shabbat, especially as we end it later Saturday night than we begin it
Friday night: The evening meal Friday, and the day and evening meals on
Shabbat itself. In other words, there are fourteen meals total in the
week, two a day, and three happen to be on Shabbat.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest that people skipping the third meal on
Shabbat may be because many people eat the second meal relatively late
in the day, 12:00-1:00 or even later instead of 10:00 or 11:00 (as is
done, for example, in Israel), and that meal is quite large and long. If
we ate in the same pattern and amounts as was done in the time of the
Gemara (and, to be fair, during the summer, when days are longer), we'd
probably see more people eating the third meal. In fact, if people
washed at their shul's kiddush, they could make the main meal the third,
and solve all problems.


End of Volume 46 Issue 45