Volume 46 Number 59
Produced: Tue Jan 11 22:13:06 EST 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Cake Substituting for Bread
[<chips@...>]
Chutzpah unlimited (was: Cost of simchas)
[Freda B Birnbaum]
Cost of Simchas (3)
[Leah S. Gordon, Batya Medad, Freda B Birnbaum]
French Press
[Norman Seif]
Grandiose Statements
[Mischa Gelman]
Ki'gavna
[Gershon Rothstein]
Marriage and Beauty (2)
[Tzvi Stein, Dov Teichman]
Silk Screened Torahs
[Minden]
Ties and Wedding Rings
[Dov Teichman]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:47:49 -0800
Subject: Re: RE: Cake Substituting for Bread
> > Restating something I have confirmed with my LORs: if one is
> > "kovei'a seudah", one purposefully substitutes cake for
> > bread, that is, like with seudah shlishit, one washes and
> > says Birkat HaMazon in any case.
I'm curios - does your LOR say Birkat haMazon when he has tea (or
coffee) and cake? A snack is a snack, even when it is seudah shlishit.
-rp
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:09:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Chutzpah unlimited (was: Cost of simchas)
Nadine Bonner writes:
> [...] And there are still people who are not speaking to us because they
> weren't invited.
I have two rules of thumb:
1- If I feel a twinge of disappointment at not being invited to
something, I ask myself, would I have invited them to a similar simcha
of mine? In other words, have I gauged correctly the closeness of our
relationship?
2- Just because I had you over for a few Shabbos meals, does not
obligate you to invite me to your wedding. Nice if you can, not awful
if you don't.
> I don't expect to be invited to every wedding in our community, but I
> have learned that there are people who do. I think the best "cure" for
> expensive simchas if for people to only invite those who are close to
> them and leave the rest for the sheva brachas. But I don't think there
> is much chance of that happeneing.
Try it anyway... (Hard, I know.)
> My mahutanim, my husband and I were together at a wedding the week
> before our children's wedding. A wealthy member of the shul started
> complaining to my mahuten that he and his brother had not received their
> invitations. The reason for this was simple--we hadn't invited them. But
> my mahuten was so embarrassed he ended up claiming the invitations were
> lost in the mail and inviting them and their wives. I was furious that
> he had been put on the spot, and explained that if this happened again,
> he should say that I had limited the number of invitations he was
> allowed and that he was sorry he could not invite any more guests. In
> the end, I ordered places for these four people, and they didn't show
> up.
The rudeness and the presumption (not to speak of the inappropriate
sense of entitlement) of these people is simply astounding.
> This expenses was somewhat compensated by members of my family, who I
> heard later asked for seconds and were served.
Okay, I feel a little better for you now...
I'm reminded of that long-ago Jules Feiffer cartoon, the punch line of
which is "It's we who have the insight who have to make the allowances",
describing people who couldn't fend off someone's inappropriate demands.
> We did have over 20 guests respond that they were coming to the chuppah
> but not the meal. I thought this was very considerate and appreciated
> the time they took to share our simcha.
And also better at that!
Possible solutions are to
1- have the wedding be in the morning so the meal can be brunch or
lunch, and make it dairy; and/or
2- make it buffet style, I would guess that's a bit cheaper re the
waiter service, and also keeps the wasted food down to a minimum; the
leftovers are easier to give away or to freeze and use later... perhaps
at a sheva brochos!
Our wedding, going on 34 years ago, had the chupa FIRST, around 2 pm,
followed by a reception with party food and a lot of dancing, for
probably a few hundred people, and the dinner in the evening for close
family (around 50 people, IIRC) -- I managed to bootleg a couple of
girlfriends in to the family dinner by having bridesmaids after all! (I
know, you can't say girlfriends any more, I'm showing my age...)
But then we weren't from the cookie cutter. It is very hard to buck
some of the deeply-rooted expectations, I expect even harder in smaller
communities.
Oh yeah, I got lucky with the wedding dress -- I won't even tell you how
inexpensive it was, but it was a floor model from Macy's, and I have
seen it get married a few more times! (It's ivory now, not white, and
probably getting a little too old to lend... but it had a nice life!)
[From a second submission. Mod.]
I'd said, re:
>> [...] A wealthy member of the shul started complaining to my mahuten
>> that he and his brother had not received their invitations. The reason
>> for this was simple--we hadn't invited them. But my mahuten was so
>> embarrassed [...]
> The rudeness and the presumption (not to speak of the inappropriate
> sense of entitlement) of these people is simply astounding.
I suppose it is just possible that this wealthy person is in the habit of
inviting everyone to HIS simchas, so assumes that everybody else does.
But that's the best I can give him! Even if that's true, he ought to
realize that not everyone is able to do that.
Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:44:50 -0800
Subject: Cost of Simchas
Nadine Bonner wrote in part:
"But in the case of my older daughter, her chassen's parents informed me
at the start that they would not be paying a penny towards the
wedding. While that was a blow, I felt it gave me the right to call the
shots and limit the guest list. I made a beautiful wedding in New York
for less than $9000, including the FLOPS, transporting our family from
the midwest and staying two nights in a Brooklyn family hotel. But we
had fewer than 150 guests."
I have two questions:
1. Why would you feel that you had "the right to call the shots" based
on the financial contribution of the other family? The decisions, guest
list, and social obligations are not something bought and sold, at least
among "nice" people IMO. I'm not saying the groom's parents were being
particularly honorable by not contributing, but it doesn't
disenfranchise them from being hosts.
2. Why did you host the wedding in Brooklyn if your family lives in the
midwest?? Surely you could have found a suitable environment closer to
home...? This smacks to me of the NY-centrism that I find really
irritating in the Jewish community.
--Leah S. R. Gordon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Cost of Simchas
"In my community, most sheva brachot are made and paid for by friends.
We get together and share the costs of making a nice meal. One of the
group whose finances forced them to invite fewer participants to the
wedding, gave us a fairly large list of people who they wanted to see at
the sheva brachot because they couldn't afford to invite them to the
wedding. Those of us who had to write checks for the sheva brachot were
less than happy with the situation. Before suggesting packing the sheva
brachot with a lot of surplus guests one should think twice."
The "have more people at sheva brachot, when it cost less per person" is
only when the baalei simcha are paying for the sheva brachot and
calculate a savings. If friends are doing it, then the minimal (is it?)
two "new faces" are enough.
The nameless poster here is correct, that it really was nervy of the
family. At least the family should have helped pay for those extra
servings.
Batya
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:34:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cost of Simchas
Anonymous writes, re sheva brochos:
> In my community, most sheva brachot are made and paid for by friends. We
> get together and share the costs of making a nice meal. One of the
> group whose finances forced them to invite fewer participants to the
> wedding, gave us a fairly large list of people who they wanted to see at
> the sheva brachot because they couldn't afford to invite them to the
> wedding. Those of us who had to write checks for the sheva brachot were
> less than happy with the situation. Before suggesting packing the sheva
> brachot with a lot of surplus guests one should think twice.
I'm not quite clear on whether your offense is taken at the people who
ask for too many people to be invited to a sheva brochos, or at feeling
expected to give a check for "only" a sheva brochos invitation instead
of a wedding invitation.
I learned very quickly, in planning any event, no matter HOW wide you
draw the circle of invitees, someone will wind up outside it. Everyone
has to learn to just live with that. (Even if you widen it to the third
cousins, the fourth cousins will feel left out.)
As for making a sheva brochos, can't one say to the couple, "I'd love to
make you a sheva brochos, and we can manage to seat X number of people,
re space considerations, so give me a list of X number of people to
invite"?
As to checks... Emily Post and Ann Landers don't write about sheva
brochos as far as I know, but if you're not up for a check, give them a
small present. Or don't.
(I just reread your post, and realized that you meant by "writing
checks", "underwriting the cost of the event", not "giving the couple a
present". So the group giving the event needs to indicate beforehand
how many people they can accommodate. But now I understand your
exasperation.)
Freda Birnbaum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Norman Seif <nusseif@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:39:25 -0500
Subject: French Press
The water for french press can be taken from 1.Pump pot 2. Thermal
carafe then when reafdy.. to French press (Bodum) the press may be
considered a reverse sieve.Or is it? Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mischa Gelman <mgelman@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:50:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Grandiose Statements
> On that note ... how about the ad that ran in Jewish newspapers last
> week (at least in Boston's Jewish Advocate), apparently as a result of
> the recent PETA kosher slaughtering video, with the headline to the effect
> "only the rabbis and certification agencies can define kosher slaughter"?
I thought PETA's criticism was that the practices did not meet the
guidelines for kosher slaughter. It certainly didn't appear that they
were trying to change or redefine the halakha. I personally don't agree
with PETA's agenda but the recent hoopla was more of a question of
whether the certification agencies were doing their job, not whether
they should be doing that job.
- Mischa Gelman
Pittsburgh, PA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gershon Rothstein <mocdeg@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:56:02 -0500
Subject: Ki'gavna
Does anyone know a source for who introduced the Ki'gavna prayer from
the Zohar in the Friday night service in place of Bameh Madlikin? I
would also like to know the date of the first Siddur when this appeared.
Thanks very much,
Gershon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:14:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Marriage and Beauty
> From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
> "Physical attractiveness is a very important componenet of a marriage."
> One of the great roshei yeshiva of Lithuania, is supposed to
> have remarked to his son, who refused a "shidduch" on grounds that,
> although the candidate was pious and of good lineage, she lacked
> physical attractiveness: "Vos iz dos, an esreg, vos hot a din hodor?"
Reminds of a similar story where a rosh yeshiva chastised a bochur who
he felt was too picky: "It's not an esrog, that it has to be perfect".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:54:17 EST
Subject: Re: Marriage and Beauty
Mark Steiner <marksa@...> writes:
<<"Physical attractiveness is a very important componenet of a marriage."
One of the great roshei yeshiva of Lithuania, is supposed to
have remarked to his son, who refused a "shidduch" on grounds that,
although the candidate was pious and of good lineage, she lacked
physical attractiveness: "Vos iz dos, an esreg, vos hot a din hodor?">>
The Bnei Yissoschor in his sefer Derech Pikudecho (page 45) actually
says just that. He uses it to explain why the Torah went out of its way
to point out the beauty of the Matriarchs, explaining that the Avos did
not look at their wives with any lust or bit of evil inclination, just
like Adam was before the sin. He brings many proofs to this. Thus, they
looked for beauty just as one would beautify any mitzvah. He also
references the Ohr Hachaim on Parshas Vayeitzei (29:18) that a a Talmid
Chacham should marry a beautiful wife to counteract his greater yetzer
hara. Furthermore, he suggests the idea that the body is a reflection
of the soul and thus a more beautiful soul will be reflected as a
beautiful looking person.
Dov Teichman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Minden <phminden@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:47:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Silk Screened Torahs
Nathan Lamm wrote:
> Rabbi J. David Bleich wrote a typically exhaustive review of responsa on
> the question in a recent issue of Tradition. Short answer: Likely not
> kosher.
Are you sure? His words are: "In this writer's opinion, the requisite
demonstration has not been forthcoming."
Here is an interesting preliminary reaction by Aaron Abadi:
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=5439
Lipman Phillip Minden
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:03:06 EST
Subject: Re: Ties and Wedding Rings
<Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich) writes:
<<You probably don't wear a tie (being a physicist) but many orthodox
Jewish men who don't wear wedding rings(I'm not sure if they think it's
chukat haakum) wear ties. Why? Where is the source in Chazal for wearing
ties?>>
I think we went through this once already. But here's a comfortable
chumra:
The Minchas Elozer writes in Nimukei Yoreh Deah (unpublished) that his
father, the Darkei Teshuva would reprimand those who wore ties as
transgressing the prohibition of "uvechukoseihem lo seileichu." (see
Darkei Chaim Vesholom 878) It could also potentially be a problem tying
the knot on Shabbos if certain conditions are not met.
Dov Teichman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 46 Issue 59