Volume 46 Number 82
                    Produced: Fri Feb  4  5:22:37 EST 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Grammar Question (2)
         [Jack Gross, Martin Stern]
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Yomi and Adar Sheni
         [Paul Ginsburg]
Kosher Food Recall
         [Irwin Weiss]
Plastic Coverings
         [Tzvi Stein]
Seudat Purim on Friday (4)
         [Yehonatan & Randy Chipman, Martin Stern, Gil Student,
Sperling, Jonathan]
Standing for the Prayer for the State
         [Mark Steiner]
Standing for the Prayer for the State - Redux
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Tallit Query (2)
         [Bernard Raab, Ira L. Jacobson]


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:53:29 -0500
Subject: RE: Grammar Question

> From: Stuart Feldhamer <Stuart.Feldhamer@...>
> Can one of the 13 or so people who responded to the grammar question
> please provide a source for the assertion that the "vav hamehapechet"
> ceases to perform the function of making the word be in the future tense
> if it is pronounced incorrectly?

The best source is Tanach itself, and your own powers of inference.  Take
natatti or natatta - I gave, you gave. 
- Without the vav prefix, it invariably represents past tense, and is
invariably mill'el (naTATti). 
- With the Vav prefix, it either
- - retains the past-tense meaning, or
- - flips to future. 
The context nearly always makes clear which of the two is intended; but
invariably (or very nearly so), the former are Mill'el (accented on
penult vowel) and the latter Mill'ra (accented on final vowel).  So one
can infer the rule. 

It's an inference from the evidence, and there may be scattered
counter-examples that are left as "zarim" (unexplained exceptions), or
given particular explanations.  But the pattern is so obvious that the
alternative hypotheses (of no correlation between the accept and the
tense; or random assignment of accent for the flipped-to-future usage)
are, well, absurd.

I don't think it matters much whether the inferred rule is stated by an
Ibn Ezra or Ibn Jannach or Rada"k, or by a Jack or a Stuart come-lately
-- pull out a concordance, look up the examples, and draw your own
conclusions.  (In fact, we re-analyze the sources cited by rishonim to
support their conclusions - and attack the validity of their inferences
conclusions - all the time in other areas of Talmud Torah, so why should
"toras dikduk" be any different?)

Note that there are exceptions to some of the accentuation rules, with or
without "vav hahippuch": 
- "v'lo raVU aleha"  - Gen 26:22; we would expect RAvu.
- "v'shaVA el bet aviha" - Lev 22:13; not v'SHAva.  Note that the taam
(cantillation mark) is Gershayim, which never occurs on a mill'el; if
v'shava were mill'el, the taam would be Kadma.  So the "decision" to make
this an exception in accentuation here influences to assignment
of t'amim.  (Cf. Is 6:13, in the recent haftara, where the word is

R. Yaakov Kaminecki offered a theory (sprinkled throughout "Emes
L'Yaakov") that explains several such instances -- in effect disagreeing
with the early grammarians who labelled them as unexplainable ("al
derech hazarut").  So, in dikduk as in other spheres of torah study,
there is always room for chiddushim (innovative explanations).

Jack Gross

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:58:13 +0000
Subject: RE: Grammar Question

I would have thought that it is obvious that misplacing the stress
automatically changes the "vav hamehapechet" into a "vav hachibbur" and
therefore does not change the tense.

Martin Stern


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:43:46 -0500 
Subject: Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Yomi and Adar Sheni

The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Yomi schedule does not include information of
what to learn during Adar Sheni. Should a person repeat the Adar
schedule once again for Adar Sheni this year?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:30:46 -0500
Subject: Kosher Food Recall

Kosher Food Recall: The following health alert is from the Federal
(USDA) Food Safety and Inspection Service

dated January 31, 2005.

Schreiber Processing Corp., a Maspeth, N.Y. firm, is voluntarily
recalling approximately 5,760 pounds of chicken products that may be
contaminated with Listeria monocytogenes, the U.S. Department of
Agriculture's Food Safety and Inspection Service announced today.

The products subject to recall are:

* 48 oz. boxes of "EMPIRE KOSHER, Fully Cooked, BUFFALO STYLE WINGS,
CHICKEN WINGS COATED IN SAUCE." The package also bears the date code

TO 9 ASSORTED PIECES." The package also bears the date code "0274."

Each product bears the establishment number "P-787" inside the USDA seal
of inspection. The products were produced on August 10, 2004 and
December  5, 2004. They were distributed to retail stores in CA, CT, IL,
OH, LA, MD,  NJ, NY, MA, MI, MN, PA and VA. Consumers with questions
about the recall may contact Shlomi Pilo, company vice president of sales
and marketing, at  (718) 894-2000.



From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:35:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Plastic Coverings

I've quite a few times disparagements of families who check out
potential shiduchim by checking if they use a plastic covering on
Shabbos.  I've even heard of some who must find out if it's a "thick"
plastic or a "thin" plastic.  I agree it's a meshugas, but I'm curious
as to what the reason is, from the point of view of those who care about
it.  What is their logic? Is plastic "good" or "bad" and why?  Same
question for "thick" vs. "thin".  If anyone can fill my in, I'd
appreciate it.


From: Yehonatan & Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:55:42 +0200
Subject: Re: Seudat Purim on Friday

In MJ v46n79, Joseph Mosseri asked about what to do thuis year, when
Seudat Purim falls on a Friday: 

  <<Purim this year is on Friday March 25th, less than 2 months away.
When Purim falls out on Friday when is the proper time to have seudat
Purim?  Morning? Afternoon? Or closer to Shabbat and combine both meals
into one?>>

Even though your question is actually irrelevant to me personally, and
to my fellow Yerushalmim(in our Holy City, we will observe "Purim
Meshulash" this year, with different parts of Purim spraed over Friday,
Shabbat and Sunday), I will answrer it, as on the whole we have more
frequent experience of Purim on Friday than do other places.

The custom, exactly like a Brit or Pidyon ha-Ben or other Seudat Mitzvah
that falls on a Friday (including a Yom Tov seudah), is to have the
seudah as early as possible during the day.  Some Sephardim are strict
to not only wash, but also to bentch before mid-day; I believe that such
was Rav Ovadiah Yosef's ruling.  Many Ashkenazim are strict about
washing before that time, while others eat the meal during mid-day, and
are only strict about not beginning later than Minhah Ketanah.  See Orah
Hayyim 695.2, in Hagahot ha-Ram"a, which says that lekhathila one ought
to have the meal during the morning when it falls on Fridays, and the
Mishnan Berurah there, which refers to some other sources as well.

Incidentally, that same Ram"a says that one always (i.e., when it falls
on other days of the week) ought to have the main part of the meal
during the day, and not wash just before sundown and continue into the
night, as many people do.

The problem is that there's lots to do on Purim: hearing the Megillah in
the morning, bringing mishloah manot, which should be brought to others
before the seudah, since the whole idae of that mitzvah is that others
share in your seudah, and vice versa, through having one course that you
have sent (manot = portions, i.e, of a meal).

One doesn't combine the seudat Purim with the Friday evening meal
because each meal is a separate obligation, with its own distinct hiyyuv
and character.  That is in fact the reason why we in Jerusalem have
"Purim meshulash": the megillah is read on Friday, with the rest of the
world, because one doesn't read the megillah on Shabbat (gezerah
de-Ravva, one doesn't perform mitzvot involving a specific object on
Shabbat, so as to avoid accidentally carrying in the reshut harabbim);
but one might think that the Seudah could take place on Shabbat, which
is the 15th of Adar.  But no, it is postponed to Sunday (but one doesn't
say al hanissim, becayse it's not the actual day), precisely becaude the
Purim seudah can on no account be combined with the shabbat seudah.
That's in essence the same question you're asking, from the other end of
Shabbat, so to speak.  And once it is a separate,. distinct seudah, it
must be eaten as early as possible during the day, so that one has an
appetite for the Shabbat evening meal.

May the doubling of Adar bring with it a double portion of simhah!
  Yehonatan Chipman 

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:00:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Seudat Purim on Friday

on 2/2/05 10:49 am, Joseph Mosseri <joseph.mosseri@...> wrote:

> Purim this year is on Friday March 25th, less than 2 months away.
> When Purim falls out on Friday when is the proper time to have seudat
> Purim?  Morning? Afternoon? Or closer to Shabbat and combine both meals
> into one?

As far as I can remember from previous occasions when this happened, one
makes the Purim seudah in the morning in order to to be able to eat
one's Shabbat seudah with appropriate appetite. One should definitely
not have it close to Shabbat.

Martin Stern

From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:02:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Seudat Purim on Friday

This happened four years ago in 2001 and the instructions given were to 
*begin* the meal before midday. See 

Gil Student

From: Sperling, Jonathan <jsperling@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:12:51 -0500
Subject: Re:  Seudat Purim on Friday

SA Orach Chaim 695:2 and the Mishna Berura ad loc say that the Seudah
should be eaten in the morning, before chatzot hayom.  I do not believe
there is any reason why one cannot deliver shaloch manot after, rather
than before, the seudah (other than zerizim makdimim, perhaps).


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:21:49 +0200
Subject: RE: Standing for the Prayer for the State

Without wanting to get into either the politics or theology of the
Prayer for the State of Israel, I thought I would mention a remarkable
phenomenon which I witnessed on Yom Ha-Atzmaut this year.  We went on
vacation to a moshav in the Golan Heights--here are people who
ostensibly believe in the State of Israel and, of course, its elected
government, as having religious significance.  They therefore stand
(with a sefer Torah to lend significance) and pray for the State, and
its officials, saying "vetaknem be-etzah tovah milfanekha, " roughly
"Grant them good counsel in Your eyes."  Not long afterwards, they stood
again (with a sefer Torah) and prayed to Hashem to protect them AGAINST
those very same elected officials (particularly Sharon): "hafer `atzatam
ve-kalkel mahshavtam" ("counfound their [evil] counsel").  (Since this
is not a political discussion group, I won't explain why they felt they
needed protection against the Prime Minister.)  It seemed to me that
there was a certain logical tension between the two prayers, and it
wasn't clear which one Hashem was supposed to hear....


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:00:25 +0200
Subject: Standing for the Prayer for the State - Redux

According to press reports, there are quite a large number of people in
the National-Religious camp in Israel who believe that the State has
lost its meaning religiously since it signified its readiness to give
back land. Some say that this approach now brings them close in
philosophy to the Neturei Karta. There is even talk in the press of a
move by some of them to refrain from using Israeli currency and not to
buy products from anywhere but from Gaza and the West Bank.

I wonder if this move away from the previous consensus regarding the
State as the Beginning of the Flowering of our Redemption means that
they have stopped saying the prayer as well - not to mention standing
for it.

Does anyone have information on this point?
Shmuel Himelstein


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:13:13 -0500
Subject: RE: Tallit Query

>Avi Heller asked how to keep a Tallit from constantly slipping off.

I appreciate the query and the sentiment behind it. The constant, almost
continuous, fiddling and readjusting of the tallis by almost every rabbi
during his Shabbat sermon is annoying and distracting. But this seems to
be something that we are destined to suffer without relief.

Or is it? When did it become necessary to wear a tallis that is so large
that it is necessary to drape the ends over your shoulders to keep it
from dragging on the floor? This is the source of the whole problem. If
one respected rabbi wore a tallis that was a little shorter so that it
needn't be draped in that way, then a nice set of tallis clips would
work beautifully to keep it in place without fiddling, and perhaps a new
paradigm would be established.

I'm not taking any bets.
b'shalom--Bernie R.

From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:35:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Tallit Query

    [ Part 1.1, Text/PLAIN  16 lines. ]
    [ Unable to print this part. ]

Avi Heller asked how to keep a tallis from constantly slipping off.

Seriously, the major cause seems to be the material of the tallis and
that of the garment on which it rests.  There are wool taleisim that are
"rough" and others that are "smooth."  Similarly for the garment that the
tallis rests on.

You can prevent the slippage by changing one or another of these items.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


End of Volume 46 Issue 82