Volume 46 Number 90
Produced: Wed Feb 9 6:21:25 EST 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Grammar Question - accent on antepenultimate syllable (3)
[Shimon Lebowitz, Martin Stern, Lawrence Myers]
Grammar Question: Great Flexibility of Hebrew Grammar
[Russell J Hendel]
Grammer Question
[Arie]
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From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:43:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Grammar Question - accent on antepenultimate syllable
> While this is true in general, there are a few exceptions, for example
> tso'ara and ha'ohela in parashat Vayera where the accent is on the
> antepenultimate syllable.
I do not think these are exceptions, as both "`ara" and "hela" are not
really pairs of two syllables. In each case the first "vowel" is a
"hataf", which IIRC (and if I learnt correctly) counts as a shva-na`,
and just slightly elongates the syllable defined by the next vowel. (I
am probably not using correct terminology, but that is the general
idea).
Bechavod,
Shimon Lebowitz mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:13:06 +0000
Subject: Grammar Question - accent on antepenultimate syllable
> Martin Stern stated "(but VeSHINantam is meaningless since Hebrew can
> only have the primary stress on the last syllable (milra) or the
> penultimate one (mil'el) never on any previous one)"
>
> While this is true in general, there are a few exceptions, for example
> tso'ara and ha'ohela in parashat Vayera where the accent is on the
> antepenultimate syllable.
>
> Both of these have the locative heh on an original word with the accent
> on the penultimate syllable. I would be interested in any other
> examples.
You are absolutely right. I had forgotten the odd anomaly of the
locative of a mil'el word which is caused, as you say, by appending the
locative suffix, -ah, which adds an extra syllable at the end. However,
I don't think there are any other cases.
Martin Stern
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From: Lawrence Myers <lawrence@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:33 -0000
Subject: Re: Grammar Question - accent on antepenultimate syllable
> From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
> Martin Stern stated "(but VeSHINantam is meaningless since Hebrew can
> only have the primary stress on the last syllable (milra) or the
> penultimate one (mil'el) never on any previous one)"
>
> While this is true in general, there are a few exceptions, for example
> tso'ara and ha'ohela in parashat Vayera where the accent is on the
> antepenultimate syllable.
>
> Both of these have the locative heh on an original word with the accent
> on the penultimate syllable. I would be interested in any other
> examples.
The 2 cases you refer to do have their accent on the penultimate
syllable, since the vowel before the last is only a chatef (half) vowel
(chatef segol or chatef patach) which stands in for the shevah which
should be there, but can't be because the letter is a guttural (hay or
ayin in your examples). Such a half vowel does not make a syllable of
its own but combines within the following letter and vowel to make one
complete syllable. eg Emet, truth, is grammatically monosyllabic.
There are two words that oddly have their accent on the anti-penultimate
syllable. One is Ne'er'mu in Shirat HaYom. The other is a similar word
from Tehilim that I can't precisely remember. But they are definitely
the exception.
Lawrence Myers
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From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:06:55 -0500
Subject: RE: Grammar Question: Great Flexibility of Hebrew Grammar
Jay Shachter (v46#85) makes several comments about verbs in English vs
Hebrew. Closer examination will show that these comments are not
correct, in my opinion -- what is correct is that our current way of
teaching Hebrew grammar is very primitive...emphasizing only a few of
the many rich forms that Hebrew has. The truth is that both the English
and Hebrew mind have a rich variety of verb forms by which they can
communicate.
Before beginning: Jay suggested that this conversation belongs on
HebLang. Not so!. This is not a technical grammar question that we
should relegate it to the HebLang list. It is a question about how we
read and breath the Bible--how we invoke nuances and moods with verbs. I
certainly think that this conversation belongs here on mljewish.
My basic thesis is that Hebrew has the same rich assortment of verb
forms as any other language. Here are a few EXPLICIT examples from
Rashi: Let me start by avoiding grammatical jargon and simply using
examples. The first example is the difference between the sentences (A1)
WHen you WILL SEE a red light, stop vs (A2) UPON SEEING a red light,
stop. Both sentences say the same thing but (A2) is the more
professional and better grammatical version. Similary for (B1) I stopped
when I saw a red light vs (B2) I would always stop when I see a red
light. Again (B2) is the better sounding version.
On the Rashi website I collect several examples at
http://www.Rashiyomi.com/ex18-15a.htm
For example (Ex18-15a) 'Upon COMING to me I, Moses, advise the people fo
Gods ways', (Ex33-07) 'Moses WOULD pitch his tent outside the tent for
people to come'; (Ex33-08a) ' When Moses WOULD go out, people WOULD stand
for him'; Other examples are presented at this URL.
As for Jay's own example I would translate Gn44-32 as 'If I, Reuven,
dont bring the child back to you then I am sinning against you
continuously'. I think this example illustrates the pedagogic issue I
raised above...the problem is not with the Hebrew language but with how
we teach it. We act like the form ROOT+TAUV+YUD means PAST. But in this
sentence it means the PROGRESSIVE PRESENT (I am sinning towards you
continuously). IF we had been taught this we would find the verse
odd. Has nothing to do with our English background. (And yes in English
and other langauges one form can have several verb usages.
Let me close with an example from this weeks Parshah. According to
Rashi: the PAST form means PAST PERFECT while the VAV+FUTURE means
PAST. So Gn04-01 is translated not as "Adam KNEW his wife" but rather as
'Adam HAD KNOWN his wife'. Hence the Rashi that Kayin was born prior to
the exile from Gan Eden. This PAST PERFECT (had done) vs PAST (did)
illuminates many difficult midrashim---for example: Gn01-02 should be
translated 'But the earth HAD BEEN FORMLESS and void'; Hence the
statement of the Zohar 'God had been creating and destroying worlds till
he came to this one'. For many more examples see
http://www.Rashiyomi.com/gn10-25a.htm. In our Parshah, Ex24-01 is
translated 'God HAD ALREADY SAID to Moses come up to the mountain....'
(This verse is the GRAMMATICAL basis for Rashi claiming the sequence of
chapters in Exodus is not chronological)
I again repeat: This thread is about how we read and breath the
Bible--how we make nuances etc I for one would like to see this thread
continue.
Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/
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From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:21:42 +0200
Subject: Re: Grammer Question
> Mispronounced words in Hebrew can very drastically alter the
> textual meanings, as can incorrect vocalization -pauses, commas,
> in wrong places. However, those mistakes are cannot alter the
> 'function' of the vav ha-hipuch.
> Brian Wiener
I don't agree. If you pronounce a word mil'ayl when it should be milra,
the vav just means "and", and the rest of the word is past tense rather
than future. While some people will not correct this mistake during
k'riat haTorah, almost all regard it as a mistake.
The same, I believe, applies for pauses. Tomorrow morning in the laining
for Rosh Chodesh there are a few examples. One is in the last aliyah,
the pasuk Uv'rashei chodsheichem ends with the word t'mimim. If the
tipcha under the penultimate word, shiv'a, is not stressed, then only
the K'vasim are t'mimim, not the rest of the animals.
Arie
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End of Volume 46 Issue 90
