Volume 47 Number 49
Produced: Wed Apr 6 7:17:11 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Checking Labels
[Carl Singer]
Kedoshah/Kedushah
[Stephen Phillips]
Mistakes in Megilla Reading
[Nathan Lamm]
R. Gourary and the Shtrenmel (2)
[Alex Heppenheimer, Yisrael Medad]
Women as gabbais
[Leah S. Gordon]
Women's Megila Reading (7)
[Anonymous, W. Baker, Moshe Koppel, Janice Gelb, D Wenger,
Aliza Berger, Shlomit]
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 12:45:40 -0400
Subject: Checking Labels
Many factors to consider -- if you live in a community with a "kosher
store" then you might rely a bit more on their checking labels /
suppliers, etc., for changes. Similarly there are multiple sources of
current information informing you when changes have been made. Also,
word of mouth travels very quickly.
Carl Singer
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From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:51:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Kedoshah/Kedushah
> From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
> "Now Baer's siddur does have the above reading (Uvinimah kedoshah),
> which appears to be the old German minhag, as opposed to the
> Polish/Eastern European (and Sephardi) variation which appears to be
> taking over here (in Eretz Yisroel)."
> Now that we can do the research without leaving the computer, it seems
> reasonable to check the sources before posting. In the 1691 Frankfurt
> siddur I referred to recently (with a URL site) the vocalization is
> "kedusha", the noun. Rashi to Isaiah 6:3 explains the meaning of
> "kedusha kulam ke-ehad `onim..." Though Baer questions the authenticity
> of this Rashi, he himself quotes a Tosafot that says a similar thing.
Indeed we can now do our research from our PCs. I have searched the Bar
Ilan Responsa CD for "Kedushah Kulam" and came across a Teshuvah in
Yabia Omer Orach Chayim Volume 8, No. 11 paragraph 15. If you want
sources for something, Yabia Omer is the place to find them.
He quotes the Avudraham and the Beis Yosef (Siman 59) in favour of
Kedoshah. He quotes the Rama in the Darchei Moshe as saying that this
was how it was written in their Siddurim.
In favour of Kedushah he quotes the Shiyurei Kenneses Hagedolah, Rashi,
Tosefos and Rabbi Yehudah bar Yakar (the Ramban's Rebbi).
He then quotes the Siddur of the Yaavetz which has it as Kedoshah, but
in his Mor uKetziya the Yaavetz regrets this and changes his mind to
prefer Kedushah.
Rav Ovadyiah concludes that Kedoshah is preferable, but "D'Ovad K'Mar
Ovad uD'Ovad K'Mar Ovad," suggesting that either is correct if that is
your custom.
Stephen Phillips
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:43:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mistakes in Megilla Reading
I wonder what mistakes would have to be made to force a re-reading of
the Megillah. For Nakh, one reads along with the ba'al korei and correct
to him- or herself. Granted, Esther (unlike the rest of Nakh readings)
is a mitzvah d'rabbanan, but the rules are similar.
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From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: R. Gourary and the Shtrenmel
In MJ 47:45, Menashe Elyashiv wrote:
> After the Rebbi's passing, R. SG wore the Rebbi's shtreimel. R. MM
> then cancelled the wearing of shtreimels for Habadinks... After a year
> passed, R. MM was the official Rebbe.
It seems to me that this needs correcting on several accounts, both
major and minor:
1. R' Yosef Yitzchak wore a spodik (a high fur hat), not a shtreimel
(which is low and broad). There are also plenty of photos of him wearing
a fedora.
2. There was no official headgear at the time for Lubavitcher chassidim:
most commonly people wore straw hats, fedoras, or "kaskets" (Russian
caps), and a spodik would have been a rare sight indeed, probably due to
the cost. So there couldn't have been any edict cancelling the wearing
of spodiks for the chassidim.
3. It's indeed true that, to the best of my knowledge, R' Menachem
Mendel never wore a spodik (let alone a shtreimel), but rather a gray or
black fedora. It might be more correct to say, then, that this
established the norm for Lubavitcher chassidim, not by fiat but simply
by diffusion.
Kol tuv,
Alex
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 23:47:30 +0200
Subject: R. Gourary and the Shtrenmel
Regarding the posting of Menashe Elyashiv, writing:
> After the Rebbi's passing, R. SG wore the Rebbi's shtreimel. R. MM
> then cancelled the wearing of shtreimels for Habadinks... After a year
> passed, R. MM was the official Rebbe.
my local Chabad expert tells me:
The shtraimel until this very day is on the Rayatze's desk in the upper
floors of 770. In those days to show that the new rebbe had the o.k.so
to speak he would wear the previous rebbe's shtraimel and walk with his
walking stick. The rebbe asked Nechama Dina ,[the Rayatze's wife] if she
was giving him the shtraimel as a gift or as an inheritence...she said
it was a gift ...and he basically, said if it was a gift he did not need
it.
Yisrael Medad
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:29:00 -0800
Subject: Women as gabbais
Simon Wanderer wrote, in part, re. women's megillah readings:
>above. One more pragmatic issue which nobody has raised is the fact
>that many (most?) women attending a reading for women alone will not be
>comfortable correcting the reader. At most readings I have heard, be
I find this objection surprising and inaccurate. I have been a
congregant, leader (reader), and gabbai (gabbait?) in women's readings
for years. In all well-run readings, as indeed in any well-run
religious service, there are corrections as necessary (for content
errors as opposed to notes).
On what is Mr. Wanderer basing his comments? Don't the services he's
heard of, use gabbais at the bimah? I would suggest, furthermore, that
the women at a women's reading are in one of two categories that make
them *more* likely than parallel men to make corrections: 1. fellow
readers (women's readings often divide up the reading by perek, so that
more people can participate)--fellow readers are usually familiar with
the text and requirements, and often are up at the bimah. 2. very
interested/educated women congregants (who will be likely to be aware
and invested in a kosher reading)
I sincerely hope that Mr. Wanderer is not making a blanket assumption
that women would be either more ignorant than men or more hesitant to do
a correct halakhic reading. I also think this would be erroneous. Even
common stereotypes of women usually point to a female tendency to notice
tiny things out of whack!!
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:29:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Women's Megila Reading
> From: Simon Wanderer <simon.wanderer@...>
> There have been a number of postings on Halachic aspects of the
> above. One more pragmatic issue which nobody has raised is the fact that
> many (most?) women attending a reading for women alone will not be
> comfortable correcting the reader. At most readings I have heard, be it
> Torah or Megila, the reader has made some sort of mistake and been
> corrected by someone at the Bimah or a (male) congregant. The fact that
> there may well be nobody prepared to correct the reader at a 'women's'
> K'rias HaMegila is, in my opinion, a very real reason to encourage women
> to attend the main reading in Shul wherever possible. Indeed, my wife
> was concerned about a mistake this year, but did not feel comfortable
> correcting. We also heard about a K'ria where a mistake was noticed and,
> because nobody corrected at the time, a 'rerun' had to be arranged for
> 4.00pm Friday afternoon. How many mistakes went totally unnoticed
> elsewhere, possibly invalidating a reading entirely?
In my synagogue there is nobody prepared to correct the male reader (and
even if there were, the reader would not be able to hear them because of
the noise), but the women's kria has no such problem, so I guess some
women are better off hearing a woman. Maybe the solution for the
writer's specific problem is to have women (and his wife, who heard the
mistake but did not correct it) learn to be more assertive?
And to relate to the seifa, if mistakes actually go unnoticed, is the
entire reading really invalidated? Who determines that, inasmuch as it
was unnoticed? Does anyone have a direct line to the Good L-rd who told
him or her how displeased He is with persons who have appeared before
Him on Judgement Day who did not realize that they heard a kria that was
actually invalid? And perhaps we should now change the Halakha regarding
people who heard a kria from a sefer torah that they thought was kasher,
a week before it was discovered that the sefer is pasul?
Sorry, but because of my fear of my brethern, as opposed to my sisters,
this posting is anonymous. (Maybe when I finish my assertiveness
training, I will be more brave.)
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:55:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Women's Megila Reading
At the women's Megilla reading I attended there were gabbaiot chacking
the accuracy of the reading. Please don't generalize for one instance.
this will vary as it may well in other readings.
Wendy Baker
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From: Moshe Koppel <koppel@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:29:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Women's Megila Reading
While there is some dispute regarding whether one should correct a
substantive mistake in megillah reading, I never heard of "invalidating"
a reading. (See, for example, Aruch HaShulchan 690:20.) Strange.
> correcting. We also heard about a K'ria where a mistake was noticed
> and, because nobody corrected at the time, a 'rerun' had to be
> arranged for 4.00pm Friday afternoon. How many mistakes went totally
> unnoticed elsewhere, possibly invalidating a reading entirely?
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From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:33:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Women's Megila Reading
First of all, since when is there a reading without gabbai'im? Secondly,
my solution to this problem would be to announce at the beginning of the
reading that everyone should feel free to correct the reader if they
notice an error, rather than discouraging the practice of women's
readings altogether on the off chance that people are not issuing
corrections.
-- Janice
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From: D Wenger <deb.wenger@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:36:59 -0500
Subject: Women's Megila Reading
Why do you assume that there will be no one at a women's Megila reading
to correct the reader? I have been attending women's Megila readings for
several years - and have been a reader myself for the past three years -
and have never found this to be the case. The women's groups I have been
to are essentially like many other congregations - there are some
members who wouldn't know if a mistake had been made, but there are lots
of learned women out there who know the nuances of Megila reading and
are quite able to correct any mistakes in reading, if and when they
occur.
FWIW, the women I know who read Megila see this as a great privilege and
generally take this responsibility very seriously. They practice for
long hours to ensure that their reading is correct, and do not take it
for granted or rush through it, as I have heard many male readers do.
Kol tuv,
Deborah Wenger
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From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:55:30 +0200
Subject: Women's Megila Reading
Simon Wanderer suggests that perhaps it would be better for women to
attend a men's reading because women are afraid to correct at a women's
reading.
I have attended dozens of women's megillah readings over the years, and
have read many times there. Simon's concern is valid. However, I don't
believe the solution is to abolish women's readings. The solution is for
the woman who will act as corrector to know the megillah perfectly, and
to have the readers practice for her beforehand.
My recollection is that the (im)propriety of calling out corrections
from the audience has been debated previously on the list.
Sincerely,
Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com
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From: Shlomit <stern12@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:38:05 +0200
Subject: Women's Megila Reading
I would like to response to the posting on Megila Reading by Simon
Wanderer .
First of all, as a woman who has participated in a Megilla Laining for
the last 6 years, I can tell you that this year I was thinking to myself
that we should actually announce in the begining of the reading that
there is ONLY one person in charge of correcting the woman who were
reading- since the few mistakes that were made were called by so many
people at once.
Assuming the situation you are discribing exists, your wife should
encourage her friends to appoint a woman to sit by the bima and make
sure no mistakes are made- I have never been to a woman's reading where
there was not such person. I would like to remind you that as we all
know, the problem does not come up if someone makes a mistake in the
teamim but only in correct pronounciation of the words, and therefore
all you really need is someone who can read Hebrew very well and is not
embarassed to correct her fellow reader.
Shlomit Stern
Israel
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End of Volume 47 Issue 49