Volume 47 Number 52
                    Produced: Thu Apr  7  6:33:19 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

The Charedi World and the Death of the Pope
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Erev Pesach on Shabbat (5765): A Short Guide
         [Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer]
haleluhu V/B in Psalm 150
         [Gershon Rothstein]
Tircha d'Tzibbur (6)
         [Martin Stern, Yisrael & Batya Medad, Michael Mirsky, Akiva
Miller, Richard Schultz, Jeff]


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:31:19 +0200
Subject: The Charedi World and the Death of the Pope

Would anyone know how/if the Charedi press dealt with the death of the
Pope? And so too the Charedi Yeshivot.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:22:52 +0300
Subject: Erev Pesach on Shabbat (5765): A Short Guide

What to Do when Erev Pesach Falls on Shabbat (5765): A Short Guide
by Rabbi Aryeh A. Frimer

(Note: For clarity, references have been kept to an absolute minimum.
Abbreviations - OH: Shulkhan Arukh Orah Hayyim; MB: Mishnah Berurah; IM:
Resp. Igrot Moshe.  Times are Daylight Savings for Rehovot Israel, and
following the general custom in Israel, are le-humra: Magen Avraham
before noon and Gra after noon.)

I. General: Ta'anit bechorot is pushed up to Thursday morning. Bedikat
hametz is performed Thursday evening.  All hametz, not needed for Friday
or Shabbat meals, should be sold, removed or burned before Friday
morning 11:15 AM (end of 5 sha'ot zemaniyot; same she'at bi'ur time as
in a regular year).  By Friday afternoon, the house should be entirely
Pesachdig and only kasher le-Pesach foods and utensils should be used -
with perhaps the only exception, bread for lehem mishneh.  All
preparations for the Seder (removing challah from the matzot, preparing
the maror, haroset, salt water, roasting the shankbone and egg) should
have been completed.  No preparations for the Seder or Yom Tov may be
done on Shabbat.

II. Basic Principles:

      A) Matzah

1) It is Rabbinically forbidden to eat matzah on erev pesach (OH 471:2).
The majority of Poskim maintain that this prohibition starts only from
the morning [alot ha-shahar] (ibid., MB no. 13).  The minority view
maintains that one should be stringent from the night before. (IM, OH,
I, 154).  Some have the custom of not eating matzah from Purim or Rosh

2) According to most authorities, this prohibition includes items baked
with matzah mehl (e.g., cakes and cookies), but not those cooked (e.g.,
Kneidelach - kufta'ot) [OH 444, MB no. 8] or fried (matzah brei,
chremzelach) [Erev Pesach she-Hal be-Shabbat, R. Zvi Cohen, chap. 21,
parag.  5 and note 10].

3) In order to assure that matzah will be eaten with a zest Seder night,
Haza"l forbad eating cooked or fried matzah or matzah ashira (see
section II.C below) products starting from mid-afternoon (samuch
le-mincha ketanah; 3 sha'ot zemaniyot before sunset), which is 3:57 PM.

      B) Bread (Hametz)

1) Rabbinically, it is forbidden to consume hametz on erev Pesach (which
this year falls on Shabbat) after 9:53 AM (end of 4 sha'ot zemaniyot).

2) All hametz must be removed and "Kol Chamira" recited by 11:15 AM (end
of 5 sha'ot zemaniyot).

3) Hametz may be removed by flushing it down the toilet.

      C) Matzah Ashirah (Matzah made without water using fruit juice or

1) Sefaradim use matzah ashirah on Pesach.  The custom of Ashkenazic
Jewry is to refrain from eating it, unless one is elderly or ill (OH
462:4).  Matzah ashirah is not hametz, and may be stored in the house
(ibid., MB no.  16).

2) There are three views regarding the time from which this Ashkenazic
stringency begins: a) From the same time as it is Rabbinically forbidden
to eat Hametz [i.e., 9:53 AM] (IM, OH, I, 154, 155; R. Joshua Katz and
R.  Elisha Aviner); b) from noontime [12:39 PM], which is the time it is
Biblically forbidden to eat Hametz (Resp. Nodah be-Yehudah 28); c) from
samuch le-mincha ketanah [i.e., 3:57 PM; sec. II.A.3] (Derekh ha-Chaim,
Hilkhot Pesah; Arukh ha-Shulkhan OH 444:5; R. Eliezer Silver; R. Nachum
L.  Rabinovitch; see also Yehaveh Da'at, I, sec. 91, no. 12).  d)
Children may eat Matzah Ashirah all erev pesach. (R. M. Feinstein quoted
by R. S.  Weissman)

3) Normally one makes a mezonot before and al ha-Mihyah after eating
matzah ashirah.  However, when it is used as bread - particularly for a
seudat mitzvah (like a Shabbat meal) - and is eaten together with other
foods, one recites ha-motzi and birkhat ha-mazon. [IM, OH, I, 154;
Yehaveh Da'at, I sec. 91, no. 12; Erev Pesach she-chal be-Shabbat,
chap. 15, note 17].  A minimum of a kezayit [~29.6 cc or approximately
1/3 of a Matzah - Shiurim de-Rabbanan based on "Halachos of Pesach"
R. Shimon Eider, sec. XXI.D.7; according to R. Nachum L. Rabinovitch 20
cc is sufficient] is required for birkat ha-Mazon [OH 184:6]; however,
one should preferably eat at least the volume of a ke-beitzah (~59 cc or
approximately 2/3 matzah according to R.  Shimon Eider; 40 cc according
to R. Nachum L. Rabinovitch) to fulfill the obligation of seudat shabbat
[OH 291:1, MB no. 2].

      D) Kitniyot (The custom of Ashkenazim not to eat rice or lentils on

Pri Migadim (Eshel Avraham, OH 444, no.2) permits eating kitniyot on
Erev Pesach, and indicates that the prohibition of kitniyot is only on
Pesach proper. Nevertheless, Hok Yaakov (OH 471 no. 2) forbids eating
kitniyot on Erev Pesach (from 9:53 A.M.), and this seems to be the
general custom (Resp.  Shevet HaLevi, III, end of sec 31; Nitei Gavriel,
Hag HaPesach, II, Chapter 38, no. 14). Kitniyot may be eaten Friday
night. Kitniyot are not hametz, and may be stored in the house.

III. Options for Three Meals:

      A) Friday Night: use Bread (Challah or pita - the latter makes
less crumbs), Matzah (if your custom permits it) or matzah ashirah.  If
bread is used: Make ha-Motzi over two hametz challot AWAY from the
table.  Eat the Challot over a paper towel or hametz plate, collect all
crumbs and dispose of them by flushing them down the toilet.  Wash plate
in bathroom sink and put it with the hametz dishes.  Wash out your mouth
and hands and continue with your Kasher le-Pesach meal.

      B) Shabbat Morning: use bread or matzah ashirah.

1) If you intend to use bread (Challot) - daven at the early minyan
Shabbat morning and finish eating your challot and washing out your
mouth before 9:53 AM.  Continue with you Kasher le-Pesach meal.  Finish
the clean up and recite kol chamira before 11:15 AM.

2) If you intend to use matzah ashirah: a) If you follow the most
stringent position (see section II.C.2.a) then attend the first minyan,
and finish eating the matzah ashirah before 9:53 AM.  b) If you hold
like either of the two more lenient positions (section II.C.2.b or c),
you can attend the regular minyan and finish eating the matzah ashirah
by 12:39 PM or 3:57 PM, respectively.  c) In all cases, BE SURE TO SAY
KOL CHAMIRA BEFORE 11:15 AM.  It can be said Shabbat morning before
Shul.  If you have no intention of using hametz at all on Shabbat, kol
chamira can be said already on Friday after you have removed all your

      C) Seudah Shlishit:

1) One approach is to eat two meals in the morning, separated by a
period of interruption (go for a walk, read a book etc.).  If you are
using hametz or matzah ashirah [and you follow the most stringent
position (sec. II.C.2.a)], then both meals must be finished before 9:53
AM.  If you hold the middle position in matzah ashirah (section
II.C.2.b) you have to 12:39 PM.

2) A second approach is to eat products made from cooked or fried matzah
pieces or matzah mehl (section II.A.2) or matzah ashirah [if you hold
the most lenient position (section II.C.2.c)].  Make mezonot and al
ha-michyah - unless you eat ~236 cc (ca 2.7 matzot), in which case you
make ha-Motzi (Yehaveh Da'at, I, sec. 91, no. 12; according to R. Nachum
L. Rabinovitch 120-150 cc is sufficient).  Use them before 3:57 PM.

3) Use fruit, meat, fish or potato starch cakes and macaroons, even
after 3:57 PM.  Be sure not to fill yourself up, so you will have an
appetite by the evening.

PDF file in English available at -
PDF file in Hebrew available at -

Hag Kasher ve-Sameah!

Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: <FrimeA@...>


From: Gershon Rothstein <mocdeg@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:44:07 -0400
Subject: haleluhu V/B in Psalm 150

Baruch J. Schwartz wrote:
>Not all of the printed editions and siddurim have gotten this right,
>but here are the correct data:
>If your siddur has failed to record this accurately, let the publishers

I was about to call and demand a refund from Artscroll because they have
both Bigvurotav and Betsiltsele with a dagesh (these are the correct two
that should be Raphe as pointed out by David Wachtel in #39), when I
decided to do a bit more checking before taking that step. I was
surprised to find that many reputable siddurim have the same pointing as
Artscroll. These are: Avodas Halvavos by Zev Yavetz, Avodas Yisroel by
Zeligman Baer, Tehilas Hashem by the Alter Rebbe of Chabad, Iyun
Tefillah by Yaakov Zvi Meklenberg (HaKesav V'Hakabalah), Siddur Hashalem
by Philip Birnbaum, Tzelosah D'Avraham by Yisroel Virgiger and many
others. On the other hand, many other reputable siddurim have the
pointing not like Artscroll, but rather both Vigvurotav and Vetsiltsele
without a dagesh.

It turns out that the Mikraos Gedolos Nach of Venice 1524-26 which was
edited by Yaakov ben Chaim Adoniyahu and which was the source of most
Nachs until the 19th century, is also on the Artscroll team with both
Bigvurotav and Betsiltsele with a dagesh, while later, accurate Kisve
Yad (manuscripts) have both Vigvurotav and Vetsiltsele Raphe, as David
Wachtel pointed out.

I find it very interesting that Mincha Shai doesn't comment on these
words at all. It seems that he was happy with Mikraos Gedolos Nach's
pointing. I also find fascinating that Artscroll itself switches teams
in its one-volume Tanach and in its two-volume Tehilim and prints both
words Raphe.

So, what to do? Should I open my Artscroll siddur tomorrow morning and
read both words with Dagesh, or should I switch to my Siddur Vilna and
read both words Raphe? It's truly a problem. I don't know what to
do. Perhaps someone can shed some more light.

Best wishes to all,
Gershon Rothstein


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:17:02 +0100
Subject: Tircha d'Tzibbur

on 6/4/05 11:56 am, Anonymous wrote:
> Our shule has a morning weekday minyan that always ends at 7:00 A.M.
> (starting time is adjusted for Monday / Thursday, Rosh Chodesh, etc.)
> Recently a congregant became an avel and is now chiyuv to daven for the
> amud.  Unfortunately, he davens somewhat slowly (he's trying but really
> incapable of davening at the pace that this minyan is accustomed to.)
> The minyan is now ending about 7:10 or 7:15 -- which is a problem for
> the "regulars" who have carpools, and busses to catch to get to work on
> time.
> Starting earlier is really not an acceptable option.
> Any comments / suggestions.

I would not say "unfortunately" if he is trying to daven with great
kavannah but whether he should impose this on the tsibbur is doubtful.

To be a bit frivolous before the end of Adar, he may be trying but for
the tsibbur he is very trying! However to be serious, he may be a chiyuv
but that is his personal obligation, it is not an obligation on this
particular minyan to let him be sheliach tsibbur and the best solution
is that it should not. If he insists on his 'rights' against their
wishes, he shows himself to be more concerned with his own honour than
filial piety and it would be entirely in order for everyone else to walk
out and form a separate minyan. The Kitsur writes that the greatest
honour to the deceased is that people should admire the way the children
behave, keeping Torah and mitsvot, not by their saying innumerable
kaddeishim or acting as shats where this causes problems.

Martin Stern

From: Yisrael & Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:33:19 +0200
Subject: Tircha d'Tzibbur

a)  depends on who is bolder, the Rav or the Gabbai.
b)  explain to him that the chiyuv is Kaddish not the davening which is 
    a custom. 
c)  have someone else do P'sukei d"zimrah or, have him do only Pd'Z
    and pick up after Chazarat HaShatz.

Yisrael Medad

From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:45:10 -0400
Subject: Tircha d'Tzibbur

If the Uvail won't get offended, perhaps he can daven only part of the
davening.  For example, in my shul, up to three availing have davened in
Shacharit, one until Yishtabach, second Yistabach till after
Tachanun/Laining, and the third from Ashrei till the end.

Michael Mirsky

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:00:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Tircha d'Tzibbur

Anonymous asked how to deal with an avel who can't daven at the pace the
minyan is accustomed to. My suggestion is to let him lead the davening
starting from the second Ashrei to the end. This will give him an extra
Kaddish over not being chazan at all.

Akiva Miller

From: Richard Schultz <schultr@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:07:06 +0300
Subject: Re: Tircha d'Tzibbur

I once attended a minyan that had a similar problem, except that it
wasn't "somewhat" slowly so much as "extremely" slowly.  The eventual
solution was to have the mourner "take over" at Ashrei from a "normal
speed" shaliach tzibur [prayer leader].  That solution worked for our
minyan; I don't know whether yours will be as accomodating, or if the
mourner in question will be willing to give up his "rights" in favor of
the needs of the community without being insulted.

Richard Schultz

From: Jeff <unknownjs@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Tircha d'Tzibbur

This has happened in my shul also.  The compromise, we have the avul
daven brachot and korbanot, switch to a different chazn for P'sukei
D'zimrah and the beginning of Shacharit, then have the avul return to
the amud from the second ashrei to the end.  The gabbaim worked with him
to increase his speed on those parts.  This allowed the avul to be "at
the bimah" for kaddish and kept the minyna flowing.

Just an idea.


End of Volume 47 Issue 52