Volume 47 Number 64
                    Produced: Wed Apr 13  7:05:23 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artscroll Siddur
         [Jack Gross]
Badatz (2)
         [Y. Askotzky, Risa Tzohar]
grammar and shulchan Arukh
         [Eli Turkel]
Grammer and Halacha
         [Ben Katz]
"great divide"
         [Batya Medad]
Quinoa for Pesach
         [Aliza Berger]
R. Schwab
         [Eli Friedwald]
Singer's Siddur
         [Ben Katz]
Siyum and Fasting -- on Tzom Gedaliah
         [Robert A. Book]
Tircha d'Tzibbur
         [Stephen Phillips]


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:58:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Artscroll Siddur

From: Allen Gerstl <acgerstl@...>
> IIRC "gashem" is the pausal form of "geshem" and pausal forms are only
> found in Biblical Hebrew but not in Mishnaic Hebrew ("Lashon Chazal").
> Thus if what is intended is a reference to a biblical verse then the use
> of biblical Hebrew grammar would be appropriate but otherwise the
> language of the siddur is generally, I understand, Mishanaic Hebrew.

Nusach Ashkenaz has
    "Borei P'ri Ha-gafen";
Nusach Sfarad,
    "Borei P'ri Ha-gefen".
-- so it appears the issue of l'shon torah vs. l'shon mishna is a broad

All the machzorim I am aware of have, in the Kalir's T'fillat Geshem,
have ... Ki Ata ... mashiv haruach u-morid *Hagashem* livracha v'lo
liklala ...

even though there is no pause (on the order of sof pasuk or etnachta)
there.  It would appear that those who assigned a kamatz (rather than
segol) to the text of the piyyut (whether the author or later copyists)
were accustomed to *hagashem* in normal usage (outside the piyyut).


From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:32:47 +0200
Subject: Badatz

> Yes, the mashgiach in our supermarket explained that the badatz does not
> give hashgacha for Pesach period. He said ignore them and use it on
> Pesach if someone else says Pesach.
> 'Chag samekh v'kasher'
> Risa

Your post is not accurate and hence, if you are strict about using
mehadrin hechsherim and one is not on it for Pesach, in place of the
Eidah (or whatever mehadrin hechsher is normally on it), then you likely
cannot use the product without lowering your standards of kashrus. It
may also mean the product is Kitniyos, such as Bamba, but that would
clearly say so on the packaging.

The Badatz (eidah) gives a hechsher to quite a few products for Pesach
however, they limit their Pesach hechsher primarily to staple foods. In
addition, they will not give a hechsher to products for Pesach because
of halachic reasons or reasons of custom while some other (mehadrin)
hechsherim are willing to. An example of custom is garlic in which there
is a custom not to use on Pesach. The Badatz doesn't give the hechsher
on garlic powder and the mehadrin hechsher of Chasam Sofer will step in
and put their hechsher on it as kosher for Pesach. Diet sodas with
Aspartame are an example of halachic differences where a product in
Israel has a mehadrin hechsher year around and not for Pesach.  The OU
and Rabbanut are of the opinion that the corn source of the Aspartame is
not a problem while the mehadrim hechsherim hold it may be a
problem. One would need to consult someone who is both a kashrus
(familiar with the process) and halachic expert, as I did, to understand
the issue.

kol tuv,

Yerachmiel Askotzky

From: Risa Tzohar <risa.tzohar@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:24:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Badatz

I probably misunderstood his meaning and apologize for misleading anyone. 

Risa Tzohar 
Rehovot, Israel


From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:27:31 +0300
Subject: grammar and shulchan Arukh

< However, as to the point made: whether or not the Shulchan Aruch is
the arbiter of grammar, he _is_ the arbiter of halacha, and if he says
that one should not say l'haniach but l'honiach, no non-posek or his
grandfather may decide otherwise.>

However, from today's daf yomi the beracha on the trees for Nisan is
listed both in the gemara and SA as "ilanot tovot" however many siddurim
(I checked rinat israel and artscroll) list "ilanot tovim" against SA.

Eli Turkel


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:04:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Grammer and Halacha

>From: Elazar M. Teitz <remt@...>
>The comment was made, "The phrase 'neimah kedosha' means 'sacred
>melody'.  Those who use kedusha have to put a comma before it and
>translate neimah as "sweetness,' which is incorrect."
>And why can't "n'imah," without the adjective, be translated as
>"melodiously" or "with melody"?

perhaps it could; that is not how ArtScroll translates it, however, and
that is what I was referring to.

>      In the same posting, in response to the comment by a previous
>writer that "I cite as a final example, Baer's 'lehanniah tefillin'
>(patah) rather than 'lehoniah tefillin' (kometz), which is a real
>hutzpah, since the Shulhan Arukh goes out of its way to say that the
>former is wrong," the answer appeared, "[W]hy is the Shulchan Aruch the
>arbiter of grammar?  My grandfather mispronounced a lot of Hebrew.  As
>pious as he was, I do not believe I am under any obligation to continue
>to do so."

         I of course did not mean to offend.  I was trying to humorously
(although it may not have come across that way) argue that this is a
grammatical, not a halachic issue, and that just as I do not necessarily
follow the shulchan aruch's medical advise, I do not feel I am obligated
to follow its pronounciation guide necessarily.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:14:27 +0200
Subject: "great divide"

If I'm not mistaken, Rav Tal has taken other stands removing himself
from the normative/accepted "national religious" psak and us more
"Chardal."  And you can't guess psak by clothing and beard length, or
you'd be very surprised by Rav Yigal.



From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:06:58 +0200
Subject: Quinoa for Pesach

I searched the archives and apparently this hasn't been discussed on
mail-jewish before.

What opinions have people heard on whether quinoa is considered kitniyot? I
enjoyed it at my (Ashkenazi) mother-in-law's last Pesach, but just heard an
opinion that it is kitniyot.

Sincerely, Aliza
Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: Eli Friedwald <eli@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:47:49 +0100
Subject: R. Schwab

>>With the utmost respect to R. Schwab, his purported advice to
>>ArtScroll "if it brings yiras shamayim, print it even if it's not
>>true.  If it doesn't, don't print it even if it is true" seems

>Was this advice really given?  What about "mi'dvar sheker tirchok"
>["distance yourself from a false word"] (Exodus 23:7)?

R. Schwab's attitude to Jewish history is expressed in detail in his 3
page essay "Jewish History", as published in the book "Selected
Writings". The essays in this book were prepared for publication by the
senior boys' class of Mesivta Rabbi Samson Rephael Hirsch, where Rav
Schwab served as dean. It is worth reading this essay in its entirety,
to obtain a rounded view of Rav Schwab's opinions on this subject, but
in what follows I will summarise the essay to the best of my ability.

Rav Schwab asks why it is that our Chazal never left us with a proper
historical account of the churban (destruction of the Temple), to the
point that we have to rely on the 'traitor' Josephus Flavius for the
events of the time. He explains that when prophecy ceased, the recording
of Jewish history stopped at the same time. This, despite the fact that
the Torah bids us to remember the days of yore and to ' go ask your
father and he will tell you etc..'

His answer is that there is a vast difference between history and
storytelling. History must be truthful, not sparing the failures of the
righteous and the virtues of the villain. Only a genuine navi (Prophet)
mandated by his Divine calling, has the ability to report history as it
really happened, unbiased and without prejudice. A realistic history of
Orthodox Jewish life in pre-war Germany would report failings of
important people and criticism of the community. This would violate the
prohibition against Lashon Horah (slander), which applies not only to
the living, but also to the dead - who cannot defend themselves.

There would be nothing to be gained by publishing history of this sort,
other than the satisfaction of curiosity. Rather, we should tell our
children stories about the good people, their unshakeable faith and
their great reverence for Torah sages. What is gained by pointing out
their inadequacies ? We want to be inspired by their example. That means
we have to do without a real history book. Every generation has to put a
veil over the failings of its' elders and glorify all the rest which is
great and beautiful. We do not need realism, we need inspiration to pass
on to posterity. This is the role of the ' Torah-true historian'. Here
we are speaking only of Jewish history. When it comes to secular world
history, accurate reporting will help to manifest the workings of divine
Hashgocho and serve to strengthen our emunah.

A post-script attributes this essay to the year 1984, which is around
the time that Artscroll histories and biographies were being
published. Some MJ readers will also be surprised that such a 'Torah im
Derech Eretz' luminary as Rav Schwab, could hold the viewpoint
summarised above. But it is clear that Rav Schwab held that Jewish
history should serve the purpose of motivating and inspiring and not
simply informing.

Eli Friedwald.


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:04:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Singer's Siddur

>From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
>I was wondering, in general, among the Mail Jewish readership -- how
>concerned various shuls are about uniformity and keeping with their
>specific nussach and what measures they take in that direction.

         good question.  in our shul minor variations in nusach depend
on the baal tefillah, with quite prominent lay and rabbinic members of
the shul saying, eg, uvenema kedosha (rather than the more usual
kedusha).  our shul is still about 50-50 birnbaum/artscroll, so whatever
is in each is basically OK.  iconoclast that i am, if i am called to be
a baal tefillah and my upcoming nusach is significantly different (eg
saying a modified Nachem on tisha beav) i will inform the rabbi of such
and he will usually ask someone else to daven (i am not offended of

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Robert A. Book <rbook@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Siyum and Fasting -- on Tzom Gedaliah

According to the current Daf Yomi schedule, the Siyum for Masechta
Shabbos falls on Tzom Gedaliah.  This leads to the question: which
takes precedence, the fast or the feast?  I can think of four possible

1) The long-established fast takes precedence over the recent/optional
   siyum, just as a frequent obligation takes precedence over an
   infrequent obligation.  (Tzom Gedaliah has occurred  every year on
   3 Tishrei for almost two and a half millenia; Daf Yomi has been
   around for less than a century.)  Therefore, those learning Daf
   Yomi should complete the masechta but not hold the siyum.

2) The siyum takes precedence over the fast (as many poskim rule for
   Ta'anis Bechoros).  Therefore, those learning Daf Yomi should
   complete the masechta, but not fast.  Futhermore, if it's treated
   the same as those poskim treat Ta'anis Bechoros, then even people
   who are not participating in the learning can attend the siyum and
   be exempted from the fast.

3) One should avoid the issue by speeding up the learning by a day,
   and hold a siyum on the second day of Rosh Hashana (before the
   fast), or slowing down by a day and hold a siyum on 4 Tishrei, the
   day after the fast.  This preserves the fast, but modifies the Daf
   Yomi schedule.

4) One should speed up the learning by enough to complete the masechta
   on the EVENING of 3 Tishrei, and hold a siyum on the evening of 3
   Tishrei, before the fast starts.  Then fast during the day on 3
   Tishrei, which is the only time you'd fast on Tzom Gedaliah anyway.

Here's a follow-up question:  Suppose #2 is the answer (that the
siyum takes precedence over the fast like for Ta'anis Bechoros).  And
suppose you are a bachor with the custom to actually fast on Ta'anis
Bechoros; i.e., to avoid attending someone else's siyum just to get
out of the fast.  Presumable that would apply on Tzom Gedaliah as
well.  But, does it make a difference if the bachor himself is
learning Daf Yomi and is a "part" of the Siyum rather than merely an

--Robert Book    


From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:02:47 +0100
Subject: Re: Tircha d'Tzibbur

> From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
> And as for children saying Kaddish "only",
> a) if non-children say it, i.e. parents and siblings, then obviously the
> saying of Kaddish has altered its status and maybe now is a Halacha
> rather than a custom
> b) and in the case of one's parents, who else but children would say it
> primarily?

I'm sorry, but I should have made it clearer that "children" meant those
under the age of Bar Mitzvah. In other words, Kaddish was really only
for children under Bar Mitzvah, whereas those over Bar Mitzvah daven
from the Amud.

Stephen Phillips


End of Volume 47 Issue 64