Volume 47 Number 73
                    Produced: Wed Apr 20  7:11:09 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artscroll nusach
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Changing Halacha
         [Dov Bloom]
Children with Problems
         [Perets Mett]
Family Minhag
         [Jacob Sasson]
Fast or Siyum
         [Robert A. Book]
Jewish source for phrase
         [Nathan Lamm]
         [Ben Katz]
linguistic question - Tzara'as
         [Irwin Weiss]
Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/Hageshem
         [David Roth]
Pope (2)
         [Arie, Yisrael Medad]
The Pope and Yaffa Eliach
         [Nathan Lamm]
Pronounciation / Siddurs
         [David Roth]
Pronunciation / Siddurs
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Words of Counsel
         [Yisrael Medad]


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:47:47 -0400
Subject: Artscroll nusach

Once this subject has been brioached, can anyone explain to me the
instructions given by Artscroll for Av Harachamim?

"As a general rule, the memorial prayer is omitted on occasions when
Tachanun would not be said on weekdays, but there are any number of
varying customs in this matter and each congregation should follow its
own practice.  During Sefirah, however, all agree that Av Harachamim is
recited even on Sabbaths when it would ordinarily be omitted, because
many bloody massacres took place during that period in the time of the
Crusades. Here, too, there are varying customs, and each congregation
should follow its own."

So during sefirah do all agree, or do we follow our own custom?

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:11:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Changing Halacha

>Bernard Raab wrote:
>Alex might have mentioned the Chacham Tsvi as the precedent opinion, and
>this would be more relevant to both Ashkenazic and Sephardic

Rav Dov Lior , Chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arba-Hebron and recognized as one
of the top poskim in the Religious Zionist community in Israel (and on
of the speedies and briefest, may I add. He really cuts to the chase as
anyone who knows him or hears him on the radio can attest) told me that
"mei-ikar hadin" the halacha is like the Hacham Zvi, (that the
obligation of 1 or 2 days YomTov depends on where you are now, not where
you came from. Just like candle lighting depends on where you are
now...). Because "some achronim differ" (in Rav Lior's words) he
recommends not doing de'oraita prohibitions on the ostensible 2nd day
YT. He was emphatic that no one should daven in Israel a YT davening on
the second day.

Dov A Bloom


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:42:16 +0100
Subject: Children with Problems

Menashe Elyashiv wrote:

> The smaller the school/heder, or the more group affliated the
> school/heder is, the chances of a child with special needs to receive
> help - declines.  My wife tested a 11 year old from a top heder. He had
> almost no reading abilities! But, he passed from grade to grade...

I don't think one should generalize like this. While it is likely (but
by no means certain) that a small cheider or school may be
insufficiently equipped to deal with problems, I see no reason why being
'grouo affiliated' should affect the help given to children with needs.

The impression I get of the Gerrer Talmud Toiro (cheider) in
Yersuholayim (which three of my grandsons attend) is that they are
attentive to the needs of children with learning difficulties. You don't
get more 'group affiliated' than that!

Perets Mett


From: Jacob Sasson <jacobsasson@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:37:03 -0400
Subject: RE: Family Minhag

Carl singer wrote:
>Seriously, my wife's family minhag is (a) not to eat in other homes for
>Pesach (b) not to buy other than staples and things (such as jelly) that
>would be most difficult or time consuming to make.  I do not think this
>is that uncommon.

I dont know if (b) is a "minhag" as much as a "policy." 

jacob sasson


From: Robert A. Book <rbook@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fast or Siyum

Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...> writes:
> I guess the siyum for Shabbat will be held at night to avoid the
> problem.


> BTW, this year taanit bechorot is not on erev Pesah. Should
> one fast? If the reason for not fasting on erev Pesah is because it
> would be hard to make the seder, this year should one fast? But, if so,
> the early fast would be more important than the real one! R. Pesah Frank
> said fast, R.  Kook said no.

As a bechor with a minhag to fast on the fast of the bechorot (it's
increadible that I need to say I have a special minhag to fast on a fast
day), I can say that fasting before the seder definitely enhances one's
ability to fulfill the mitzvah to eat the matzah "with appetite."
Indeed, for me something important is lost in a year like this when erev
Pesach is on Shabbos (or for that matter, on a second seder).

--Robert Book    


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Jewish source for phrase

Reuben Rudman suggests "k'shot atz'm'cha v'achar kach k'shot a'chei'rim"
as a source for "to thine self be true." This is not quite correct, as
the full quote is, "This above all: to thine ownself be true, And it
must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
man." The lesson of the two lines is quite different in nature and in

Nachum Lamm


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:43:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Kaddish

>From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
>Let me attempt once again to summarize my approach to the question of
>Kaddish as it evolved from the original posting.
>The Kaddish, I think, was originally intended to serve as a prayer in
>which a certain congregational climax was achieved - mass participation
>in affirming God's benevolence, kindness, etc. through faith.
>thus, it was selected to serve for orphans, primarily under-aged, as the
>most appropriate prayer for them to say with full joining in by the
>But now, over maybe 1800 years or so, it has gained the status of a "din
>through minhag" (my formulation) and, as my thinking goes, its
>recitation takes primacy over a davening which could cause trouble for
>the congregation.

         In De Sola Pool's monograph on the Kaddish, he believes it
began as a prayer following learning and since learning was often done
in the memory of the departed that it became associated with orphans.

         Question: where is the earliest reference to the kadish yatom?

         Answer: Mahzor Vitri, from the school of Rashi, and it is only
mentioned once there (not every place in davening we find it today) and
it is in brackets in the standard edition, making some scholars believe
it is a later insertion.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:39:22 -0400
Subject: linguistic question - Tzara'as

Linguistic question: Any possibility that tzara'as is the word from
which we get psoriasis? Both are, of course, skin diseases.



From: David Roth <davidyonah@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:46:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/Hageshem

> Rav Kaminetsy in Emet L'Yaakov on the Chumash (I can't remember the
> exact location but it is the first time that 'atah' appears with a
> stress on the first syllable but with a patach, rather than a kamatz
> under the aleph) argues strongly for the non-pausal geshem, but pausal
> hatol.
> His reasoning is that morid hageshem is connected to the next phrases
> mechalkel chayyim etc, but morid hatol is not.

According to Siddur Ezor Eliyahu, the GR"A said tal with a patach.
Interestingly, his Nusach was mashiv horuach umorid hatal.

David Roth


From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:03:23 +0200
Subject: Re: Pope

 Mike Gerver wrote:

>The fact that the Pope did not remember the incident when Ed Koch
>asked him about it is not very strong evidence against it having
>occurred. After all, this was probably 40 years later, and the Pope
>probably would not have thought the incident very important at the
>time it happened.

the story was front page in maariv the day the pope died. i said at the
time, and say again regarding the above comment, that if he did it once,
he probably did it many more times, and so would be hard pressed to

btw, the maariv story adds that the parents left three letter with this
woman, one to the woman herself asking that the child be made aware of
his history, one to the grandmother's cousin in the us, asking that the
child be brought up as a religious jew, and one to the child himself,
telling him of his family. that priest, when brought the child for
baptism when he was 6, questioned the woman as to why he was not
baptised at birth, and when told the background pressed the woman as to
whether the natural mother, a close friend of this woman, had discussed
what was to be done with the child. then he refused to baptize the
child, now apparently stanley berger of connecticut.


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:03:31 +0200
Subject: Pope

<MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver) wrote:

 >Still, if the Pope was indeed a parish priest in her neighborhood, in
 >1946 (and I suppose Yaffa Eliach could have, and would have, checked
 >this out), then the story is plausible.

BBC chronology of the Pope's life reads in the relevant section:

During World War II and the Nazi occupation he worked as a labourer,
studying theology in secret.

In 1944 following a crackdown on religious teaching he was forced into
hiding. Many of his friends went to concentration camps.

Continuing his studies after the war, he was ordained a priest in 1946.

Yisrael Medad


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Pope and Yaffa Eliach

As Mike Gerver assumed, Yaffa Eliach did indeed check out the story,
going so far as to contact the Pope himself. They spoke personally, and
he confirmed the story: I heard a lecture by her last Yom HaShoah, in
the Safra Synagogue in New York, where she told the whole story of the
Pope's early connections to Jews, with photos and all. Most interesting
to me was the fact that, as his mother died when he was young and his
father, an Army officer, traveled widely, the young Karol was
essentially raised by Orthodox Jewish neighbors for most of his
childhood, eating only kosher and even going to shul on Shabbos (and
church on Sundays) for years.

I'm not quite sure how Mayor Koch's account fits in here, but such
mistakes often happen.

Nachum Lamm


From: David Roth <davidyonah@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:51:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Pronounciation / Siddurs

> No siddur in my collection has any variant on the spelling of the
> first two words of kaddish -- nonetheless it seems quite common for
> people to pronounce those words with a long "a" -- Yis-ka-dale
> v'Yis-ka-daysh -- any insights?

The GR"A said Yisgadeil ve'Yisgadesh as is written explicitly in Maasei
Rav. The Rav also said it like that; listen to the recording at
http://www.613.org/rav/kaddish28.ram.  Also, notice that both say
keireusei with a hard kaf and do not say Veyis-halal.

David Roth


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:19:22 +0300
Subject: Re: Pronunciation / Siddurs

 Perry Zamek <perryza@...> stated the following on Wed, 13 Apr

>>No siddur in my collection has any variant on the spelling of the first
>>two words of kaddish -- nonetheless it seems quite common for people to
>>pronounce those words with a long "a" -- Yis-ka-dale v' Yis-ka-daysh --
>>any insights?

> From memory, it's an explicit statement in the Mishnah Berurah (I
> don't recall where), who writes that the first two words of the
> kaddish are Hebrew and should be pronounced with a tzere.

This MB 56:2 is based on the Gra's contention in Ma`ase Rav that these
words are Hebrew, which he bases on "vehisgadilti vehisqadishti," in
Ezekiel 38:23.  I do not have the insight to understand why this is a
proof that the two parallel words in qaddish must be Hebrew.  (After
all, we have the biblical "ma`ala ma`ala," which gets into the qaddish
as "le`eyla le`eyla".)  But even if they are really Hebrew, both
pairs--yisgadal veyisqadash, as well as yisgadel veyisqadesh--are
legitimate Hebrew forms.

Not to mention the fact that no other siddur with which I am familiar
has anything other than patah patah there, inlcuding Sefardi siddur and
Yeminite Teklal.

Please note that the Gra and the Hafetz Hayyim would never have
recommended pronouncing the tav refuya as a "t"; hence, I wrote
"yisgadal" rather than "yitgadal", regardless of the standard
transliteration convention.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:11:52 +0200
Subject: Words of Counsel

As we so much deal with Halacha in the sense of bein adam la'makom, I
thought to drop this into the list discussion.

Rav Mordechai Eliyahu warns (Kol Tzofayich sheet, #307, Tazriya) that
couples should be extra careful on Fridays and Shabbat to avoid getting
into arguments.  He recalled that when he was a Dayan in Beer Sheva, he
took note that statistically, many more divorce files were opened at the
Beit Din on Sundays more than any other day.  He concluded that with
nothing to properly do on Shabbat, couples found other "things" to do
which led to disgruntlement, etc.  He then comments that to this
situation we can apply the commandment "lo t'va'aru eish b'chol
moshvoteichem b'yom hashabbat", that one should not ignite a flame in
your residences on the Sabbath.  And with Pesach coming on the Motzash,
and its accompanying pressures and minutia of laws and complex
preparations, his advice comes at a relevant moment.

Yisrael Medad


End of Volume 47 Issue 73