Volume 47 Number 92
Produced: Mon May 16 6:11:19 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Can you live 7 days w/o Potato Chips
[Frank Silbermann]
The "Great Divide" (2)
[Ira L. Jacobson, Shoshana Ziskind]
The Great Divide among Religious Zionists
[Doctor Klafter]
Marrying one's late wife sister
[Saul Mashbaum]
Minyan and the Great Divide (2)
[Bernard Raab, Anonymous]
Non-frum Jews and Minyan
[Benschar, Tal S.]
Only frum Jews need apply
[Carl Singer]
Religious Non-Zionists.
[Jeanette Friedman]
Strange Wedding Custom
[Jeanette Friedman]
Strange Wedding Minhag
[Yisrael Medad]
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From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:39:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Can you live 7 days w/o Potato Chips
Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...> V47 N88:
> ... Every year, a friend and I have a contest for the least-necessary
> kosher l'Pesach food ...
Aside from the fact that making things Kosher l'Pesach is expensive, why
would unnecessary food products be more of an issue on Passover than at
any other time of the year?
I understand that Pesach brings its own requirements, but is there some
special Pesach spirit of denial or asceticism that I should know about?
Frank Silbermann New Orleans, Louisiana <fs@...>
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:48:39 +0300
Subject: Re: The "Great Divide"
Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...> stated the following on Sun, 08
May 2005 18:29:55 +0000:
I was recently at the airport for a flight to Israel and a fellow
tried organizing a minyan. I noticed after about a half an hour he
was only going after people with kippot. I said to him that most
of the people here even if they're not wearing kippot are Jewish
and would probably love to be asked to participate in a minyan. He
looked at me like I was from another planet. "Only frum Jews can
be counted towards a minyan," he said.
Sorry, that's not my brand of Yiddishkeit or menschlichkeit.
Am I wrong? Am I a cause of the "great divide?"
You seem to be "wrong" if we accept the Mishna Berura as "right."
See MB 55:46-47, where he enumerates the types of `aveirot that
disqualify one from being counted in a minyan. Not surprisingly,
Karaites are disqualified also.
I won't daven in a shul that doesn't offer the tefillah for
the Medinah or for the IDF.
Even a weekday ma`ariv? Could you give more details? Are there some
times that you will and others that you won't? Do you then expect some
people to refrain from praying in your shul because there such prayers
are "offered"?
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:50:58 -0400
Subject: Re: The "Great Divide"
On May 12, 2005, at 5:29 AM, Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
wrote:
> here even if they're not wearing kippot are Jewish and would probably
> love to be asked to participate in a minyan. He looked at me like I was
> from another planet. "Only frum Jews can be counted towards a minyan,"
> he said.
Well I'm Lubavitch so I suppose you wouldn't daven in my shul but I am
perplexed by someone who thinks that only frum people can count in a
minyan. Is there any Rav who poskens this way??? So much for kiruv!
Shoshana Ziskind
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From: Doctor Klafter <doctorklafter@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:18:46 -0400
Subject: The Great Divide among Religious Zionists
> From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
> There are many shades of non-observancy. I'd rather eat in the home of
> the non-observant who claims they keep a strictly kosher home/kitchen
> than risk embarrassing them by refraining from eating off their plates
-
> no matter how diplomatic I might be in explaining my hesitation.
"Ed echad ne'eman be-issurim" (the rule in halakha that we may presume
that when a Jew claims that food is kosher he or she is being truthful)
does not apply to Jews who violate the Sabbath publicly. Did you
receive a halakhic ruling from a halakhic authority that this is an
acceptable method to avoiding interpersonal conflicts, or is this your
own private policy?
How about the days/weeks immediately following pesach? Would you eat in
the same home of unobservant Jews who presumably did not sell their
chametz for pesach? Chametz she-avar alav ha-pesach is forbidden
de-rabbanan? There is no dispensation from this halakha that I am aware
of for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings. Are you willing to
transgress this halakha for the sake of avoiding embarrassing a friend
or relative?
> I won't daven in a shul that doesn't offer the tefillah for the Medinah
> or for the IDF.
Do you mean to say that if you had Haredi relatives who were making a
bar-mitzvah across the Jerusalem Forest in the Har Nof synagogue of the
Bostonner Hassidim, you not attend because their synagogue does not
recite a tefilla for the medina? What happened to your prerogative of
avoiding hurt feelings. Does this apply only to unobservant Jews? Or
only to non-Haredim?
> I was recently at the airport for a flight to Israel and a fellow tried
> organizing a minyan. I noticed after about a half an hour he was only
> going after people with kippot. I said to him that most of the people
> here even if they're not wearing kippot are Jewish and would probably
> love to be asked to participate in a minyan. He looked at me like I was
> from another planet. "Only frum Jews can be counted towards a minyan,"
> he said.
Of course you realize that it is possible to find all sorts of people
from any movement or shade of ideology who say stupid things. This is a
classic "straw man" argument, and does not support your position.
> Sorry, that's not my brand of Yiddishkeit or menschlichkeit. Am I
> wrong?
Yes, I believe you are wrong. You are putting politics and personal
feelings ahead of halakha. What entitles you to do this?
> Am I a cause of the "great divide?"
Yes, I believe that you are the cause of the great divide. You are
putting personal ideology before halakha. You have turned the tefilla
for the medina (which was never uniformly accepted by klal yisrael) into
an ikkar emuna. There are numerous synagogues in Israel which pre-date
the composition of this tefilla who never instituted this custom. There
is absolutely no halkhic mandate to avoid a shul because it does not say
the tefilla for the medina. This is merely a personal preference of
yours, and you are not reluctant to. Therefore, you are essentially no
different than the man who says "only frum Jews can be counted toward a
minyan." You are saying "only religious Zionists count." (Although,
you also believe mechalalei shabbos be-pharhesya, for reasons which
remain unclear to me, be relied upon for kashrus. What if these
mechalalei shabbos are also leftist anti-Zionists. Would you still eat
their food?)
Nachum Binyamin (Andrew Bennett) Klafter, MD
University of Cincinnati
<doctorklafter@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:06:44 +0200
Subject: Marrying one's late wife sister
Yisrael Medad noted parenthetically in a recent posting that
>my grandfather, when widowed, went back to Brody in Poland in 1932 to
>marry the younger sister of his late wife
We discussed this kind of situation at our Shabbat table last week, when
it was connected to the parsha, in which forbidden marriages are
described. I emphasized that not is it permissible to marry one's wife's
sister after the death of one's wife, but it is considered meritorious.
We mentioned among us several cases with which we were familiar in which
this was in fact done in practice.
I am unfamiliar with the basis for this practice. What are the sources
for the concept that this is a particularly appropriate zivug (match)?
Is there a halachic basis for this? The cases I know of are of
Ashlenazim; does anyone know if this practice was common in Sfardic
communities as well?
I have a separate but related question on the subject of marrying two
sisters. As is well known, the prohibitions of incestual relationships
appear in parshat Acharei Mot, and the punishments in Kdoshim. The
prohibition of marrying two sisters (strictly, having relations with
one's wife's sister during one's wifes's lifetime) is indeed mentioned
in Acharei Mot, but no punishment is mentioned in Kdoshim at all! Does
anyone discuss this?
Saul Mashbaum
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:34:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Minyan and the Great Divide
Someone forwarded to me and many others a completely charming story
written by the Chabad Rabbi from Orlando/Space Coast about his effort to
round up a minyan on board a flight from Orlando to New York which was
much delayed. He was getting rather frantic since he was saying kaddish
for his recently-niftar mother and had never yet missed a minyan. He
finally succeeded when the tenth man volunteered that he was not really
Jewish but did it matter that his mother was! None of the nine others
were at all frum, most were quite disconnected from Yiddishkeit. The
rabbi gave them a brief introduction to the prayer service and
instructed them that if they said "amen" at his signal, it would be as
if they had said the entire service themselves. By his account all were
serious and many were quite moved to be a part of this important
event. And some wanted to know how to continue...
b'shalom--Bernie R.
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From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:26:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Minyan and the Great Divide
In response to someone who wrote, "Only frum Jews can be counted towards
a minyan," the following comment appeared: "Who teaches these people
these disgusting lies? Why are they even in people's heads?"
One reason it might be in people's heads is because it's not that far
from the truth. A person who commits sins l'hachis (that is, to anger
G-d, rather than to satisfy one's desires and appetites), or one who
practices idolatry or violates Shabbat regardless of motivation, does
not count towards a minyan. (See Mishna Brura 55:46).
There are many poskim (decisors) who make an exception for those who did
not have the benefit of a Jewish education and are thus unaware of
either the prohibitions or of their severity, a concept known as "tinok
shenishbah bein hanochrim" (a child captured by non-Jews, and hence
unaware of the basic obligations of Judaism). But a person who is aware
of the nature of Shabbat and its prohibitions and chooses not to observe
it, for whatever reason, or a person who knowingly and spitefully (not
for personal gain or pleasure) violates any commandment -- such a person
is indeed not counted towards a minyan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Benschar, Tal S. <tbenschar@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:47:27 -0400
Subject: Non-frum Jews and Minyan
"Disgusting Lies?" It happens to be the opinion of the Pri Megadim and
the Mishna Berura (although R. Moshe Feinstein had a different view.
Even acc. to R. Moshe it is bedieved for various reasons.)
How easily people accuse others of sinas chinam, when in fact there are
serious halakhic issues involved.
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:50:13 -0400
Subject: Only frum Jews need apply
"Only frum Jews can be counted towards a minyan," he said.
Not to pick on this stereotypical composite -- but it's fortunate that
he didn't say "only learned Jews ...." because he would have to
disqualify himself.
I'll let the anthropologists weigh in here -- but there is an overt
clanism that has overwhelmed many groups. Those outside the group don't
count -- they may even be invisible.
I remember sitting at a Rebbe's tish while visiting in Israel and how
the Chassidim (?) sitting on either side of me passed pieces of the
Rebbe's challah PAST me so that I shouldn't have a piece. Either they
thought I hadn't washed* or they knew it wasn't kosher.
*It was clear that they hadn't washed in some time -- having been
sitting at the table singing for about an hour prior to their Rabbe
making motzei. Perhaps they had washed and made their own motzei
previously.
Oh well -- their mischlochim have stopped gracing my doorway after I
recounted this story to them.
Carl
<casinger@...>
See my web site: www.ProcessMakesPerfect.net
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:51:22 EDT
Subject: Religious Non-Zionists.
BTW, my father, who was vice-president of the World Agudath Israel and
the Agudath Israel of America, was a closet Betar-nik, whose uncle beat
the you know what out of him as a youth when he caught him in a Betar
uniform.
My uncle, Baruch Yerachmiel Yehoshua Rabinowich, the Admor of Munkacs,
was made "ois rebbe" and now the chassidim say "Yemach Shmo" because he
was a Zionist. As far as I am concerned those who use that phrase
regarding my uncle, well, the less I say what I think about that, the
better.
The brother-in-law of both of these men was Yakov Landau, who founded
Poalei Agudath Israel in Tel Aviv with another guy whose name I forget,
in 1933.
So be careful here. There are lots of closet Zionists in the Charedi
community. They don't want to be outed because their neighbors will want
to wipe them out, along with their families and names, forever.
Jeanette Friedman
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:53:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Strange Wedding Custom
my mother told me to step on my chossen's toes under the chuppah. It
didn't help. He is still a male chauvinist and lords it over me.
jeanette
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:58:17 +0200
Subject: Strange Wedding Minhag
The one I know of is that the chatan place his foot over the kallah's
foot in a crossing maneuver to assure his "dominance" over her, not that
he actually steps on her foot.
Yisrael Medad
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End of Volume 47 Issue 92
