Volume 47 Number 94
Produced: Mon May 16 6:34:55 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Kaddish (6)
[Dov Teichman, Akiva Miller, Harry Weiss, David I. Cohen, W.
Baker, Warren Burstein]
Kaddish by Women
[Aliza Berger]
Kaddish in Shiloh (2)
[Jay F Shachter, Yisrael Medad]
Other Synagogues (formerly Kaddish)
[Yisrael Medad]
Women Saying Kaddish / Kaddish said by those who are not an Ovel
[Carl Singer]
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From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:24:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Kaddish
I'm curious what is moving more women to suddenly become more interested
in saying Kaddish for parents? I know there are some who allow it, but
it has traditionally been the responsibility and unique privilege of the
male son (a kaddish'l). The one who's role in society includes going to
Shul, making a minyan, etc. Do women feel there a lack of outlets for a
daughter to do things that she feels will benefit the deceased? Is this
a feminist idea?
This is really a broader question, but I think there is a problem when
women try to take on male roles and vice versa. For the most part, I
believe this idea has emerged from modern society that does not have a
healthy view on the appropriate role each gender plays in a community.
Dov Teichman
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From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Kaddish
Edward Ehrlich wrote: <<< I would hope that her synagogue and its
members would make a great effort to allow her to fulfill the
mitzvah. >>>
to which Janice Gelb asked <<< Um, I don't mean to be facetious here,
but how could they stop her? >>>
I'd imagine that in most cases, a woman who is saying Kaddish is saying
it together with whatever men are saying it, and as a result, most men
are utterly unaware of which women, if any, are saying it.
But there will be occasional cases where there are no men saying
Kaddish, only a woman or some women. This is a case where friction could
develop, where some men might choose to ignore the sounds coming from
the women's section and just continue with the service. This might be an
example of what Edward was referring to.
Akiva Miller
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From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:32:08 -0700
Subject: Kaddish
From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
>Edward Ehrlich <eehrlich@...> wrote:
>>I suppose that a woman reciting Kaddish is sort of a humrah and I would
>>hope that her synagogue and its members would make a great effort to
>>allow her to fulfill the mitzvah.
>Um, I don't mean to be facetious here, but how could they stop her?
It could be that he was referring to a community such as ours where it
takes and effort to make sure that there are always minyanim on
weekdays.
We work together with Chabad and have morning minyanim at our
(mainstream O ) shul and evening at Chabad . During the eleven months I
was saying Kaddish for my father A"H we usually had extra people show
upand rarely missed a minyan.
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From: <bdcohen@...> (David I. Cohen)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:49:24 -0400
Subject: Kaddish
I think that it is commendable that a number of women take upon
themselves the obligation of saying kaddish for the eleven months
following the death of a parent.
The question in my mind is: why does the attendance at tefilla b'tzibbur
stop when the women no longer say kaddish ? If you want to say that
women have no obligation to pray in a minyan, then I could argue that
they equally have no obligation to say kaddish.
It seems that we have elevated the saying of kaddish as THE way of
honoring our parents after their death, when the essence of the
obligation is PRAYING...and yet right after the eleven months are
over....
I honor my mother memory by being in minyan every day possible almost 2
decades after her death.
Shabbat shalom
David I. Cohen
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Kaddish
> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> As I wrote, I have never met a woman who has made the effort to attend
> shul three times a day, or at least once, to say kaddish regularly for
> the whole eleven months. Do any other members of mail-jewish know of
> any? The only time I have ever seen women in shul on an ordinary weekday
> morning is those few of German ancestry (and no small children to care
> for) who come when they have yahrzeit.
Clearly, therre is a difference between England and the Modern Orthodox
community here in the US. I know of many women who have regularly said
kaddish for a parent, some 3 times a day and some, including myslf in
that group, who said it once a day. Ponit of interest, It can be quite
daunting when away form the home synagogue to find a minyan that will
accept you, as a women saying kaddish. I have davvened in quite a few
weird locations over my 11 months of mourning. In the NY area the
situation has improved greatly, I understand, as more women have
undertaked this as an obligation on themselves, so minyans have learned
to accomodate.
Wendy Baker
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From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:40:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Kaddish
Martin Stern wrote:
>As I wrote, I have never met a woman who has made the effort to attend
>shul three times a day, or at least once, to say kaddish regularly for
>the whole eleven months. Do any other members of mail-jewish know of
>any? The only time I have ever seen women in shul on an ordinary weekday
>morning is those few of German ancestry (and no small children to care
>for) who come when they have yahrzeit.
Yes. There are often multiple women saying Kaddish at the morning
minyan at Kehilat Yedidya. There is no Mincha/Maariv on most weekdays,
so I have no idea if they go somewhere else to make it three times a
day, and I don't go daily myself, so I don't know if they are there
every single morning but I believe this to be the case. I wouldn't
think of asking either a man or a woman if they say kaddish at every
single opportunity (I missed some myself when I was saying Kaddish, and
even if I hadn't ...), nor would I ask a woman if she is saying Kaddish
in place of male mourners, or if there are also male mourners saying
Kaddish at another location.
The Jewish world is so diverse that I don't think anything could be
declared "virtually unheard of" because one hasn't heard of it oneself.
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From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:35:33 +0200
Subject: Kaddish by Women
I said kaddish once a day for my father z"l at a local Jerusalem
synagogue, and at Yedidyah in Jerusalem, which I attend on Shabbat, it
is common. When I visited Toronto last year, there were about five women
saying kaddish at (Orthodox) Shaarei Shamayim's daily minyanim. Thirteen
years ago I found the same situation at the daily minyanim at an
Orthodox synagogue in Montreal (Beth Tikvah was the name of it if I
remember correctly, in Dollard). In fact, I have experienced women
saying kaddish in many Orthodox synagogues. I am only naming the places
where it seemed to be a big force.
I did a search for kaddish on the JOFA (Jewish Orthodox Feminist
Association) and came up with several articles on women saying kaddish,
including this one:
http://www.jofa.org/pdf/Batch%202/0024.pdf
The author (Dr. Joel Wolowelsky, then an editor of the journal
Tradition), cites many pre-WWII European rabbis and Rabbi Joseph
Soloveitchik as permitting women to say kaddish, and suggests that
contemporary pulpit rabbis take a proactive stance in informing women
about the option to say kaddish rather than, e.g., paying someone who's
not a family member to say it.
Re the following exchange on mail-jewish:
<Edward Ehrlich <eehrlich@...> suggested that synagogues should
<accommodate women who want to say kaddish.
<Um, I don't mean to be facetious here, but how could they stop her?
--< Janice
Unfortunately, it's easy to prevent a woman from saying kaddish or, more
generally, from praying with the minyan. Most commonly by not providing
a women's section and there being no way of hearing from the hall what
the congregation is up to in the tefillah, e.g., having the door to the
sanctuary closed and giving the woman a dirty look if she opens it. Or
by every man who enters late closing the door (not necessarily with any
ill intent, just thoughtlessness), and her feeling very conspicuous by
opening it. Or the men telling her the door has to be closed because of
the air conditioning or the heat. Or by men taking over the women's
section and her not wanting to create a fuss. Or by locating the women's
section so that if she comes one second late it is inaccessible (e.g,
she would have to walk through the men's section to get to it). Or by
the women's section being locked. I could go on, but that's the idea.
In fact, many years ago at a women's tefillah conference, there was a
lecture, given by Arlene Agus if I remember correctly, that included
strategies for women who want to attend an unfamiliar minyan for kaddish
or any other reason. Among the suggestions was getting there 10 minutes
early. This serves two purposes: (1) If the women's section is locked,
hopefully you can find someone to unlock it, and (2) The friendliest men
tend to come early. Sometimes the friendly person is the one with the
key and you are really lucky. Also, once you have a friend among the men
life is easier.
I will try to end on a positive note, with two pieces of advice. Men, if
you see a woman having this type of trouble in your synagogue, help her
and suggest to the gabbai and rabbi that they create better
accommodations for women. Women, if you have time, go to daily minyan
even if you have to stand in the hall at first, so that eventually the
synagogue will have to accommodate you better. If you are the timid type
(like me), take a friend so you can be braver if anything untoward
happens. How about next Rosh Hodesh???
Sincerely,
Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com
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From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:45:27 -0600 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Kaddish in Shiloh
On Wed, 11 May 2005, Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote:
> Here at Shiloh, Miriam Merzbach (nee Picard) undertook the year-long
> recital of Kaddish for her father, a founder of a Yeshiva High School
> in Paris. She recited it quietly but daily.
The sine qua non of Qaddish is to cause the congregation to proclaim
"Amen, yhey shmeh rabbah mvorakh me`atah v`ad `olam" in response to
one's recitation. To accomplish this, one's recitation must be heard by
the congregation. A person of either sex who recites Qaddish "quietly
but daily" is quietly but daily renouncing the main purpose of Qaddish.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
Chicago IL 60645-4111
<jay@...>
http://m5.chi.il.us:8080
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:02:54 +0200
Subject: Re: Kaddish in Shiloh
Jay Shachter wrote:
A person of either sex who recites Qaddish "quietly but daily" is
quietly but daily renouncing the main purpose of Qaddish.
a) i would guess so but i'm not 100% sure.
b) but, as I cannot remember a time when she said it alone, I really
don't know if she was being self-defeating.
c) of course, as we do answer Amen to Birkat HaGomel said by a woman, i
do presume that if she had been the only one to have recited the
Kaddish, the congregation here must probably would have answered "yehay
shmai..."
Yisrael Medad
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:10:26 +0200
Subject: Other Synagogues (formerly Kaddish)
Martin writes:
>I have never met a woman who has made the effort to attend
>shul three times a day, or at least once, to say kaddish regularly for
>the whole eleven months...The only time I have ever seen women in shul
>on an ordinary weekday morning is those few of German ancestry..."
well, as we all deal with logic and rationality in our Halachic
discussions, the question Martin now should be asking is: is his schule
unique or should he be visiting other synagogues in order to get to know
and appreciate expanded Jewish customs which, while new and out-of-the
ordinary, are not technically wrong - or, as he does, participate in
forums like MailJewish which provide all of us insights from around the
world when we can't physically be in Israel, England, New York, Warsaw,
India, Shanghai, etc.?
Yisrael Medad
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:08:56 -0400
Subject: Women Saying Kaddish / Kaddish said by those who are not an Ovel
May vs. Must
It seems that a woman who chooses to be in shul certainly MAY say
kaddish. (Does anyone claim that this is Mevotel?) We are then only
concerned with the OBLIGATION of saying kaddish -- which would in effect
translate to an obligation to be at davening -- hence the time-related
mitzvah which women are not required to perform.
Here's a question: Plony asks you to say kaddish on behalf of their
relative -- their schedule precludes them from regularly attending
minyan, etc. -- even though you are NOT saying kaddish for anyone else
(relatives of your own) you agree and you do so. On those occasions
when plony does, indeed, show up at the minyan -- should YOU refrain
from saying the mourner's kaddish.
OK -- what if "Plony" is a woman or a minor.
A second point -- some people find saying kaddish to be cathartic -- may
they then say kaddish if they are not a relative who is obliged to do
so. Does their beginning to do so in any way obligate them to continue
to do so. That is if plony decides to say kaddish for his uncle and
begins to do so -- does he now have the same obligation as their uncle's
children would have had?
Carl Singer
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End of Volume 47 Issue 94