Volume 47 Number 97
Produced: Fri May 20 5:41:07 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Gender Roles?
[Leah S. Gordon]
Kaddish and women
[Shmuel Himelstein]
Kaddish in Shiloh
[Stephen Phillips]
Minyan and the Great Divide (3)
[Jeanette Friedman, Perry Zamek, Carl Singer]
Other Synagogues (formerly Kaddish)
[Martin Stern]
Women and Kaddish
[Louis Finkelman]
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 04:59:09 -0700
Subject: Gender Roles?
>This is really a broader question, but I think there is a problem when
>women try to take on male roles and vice versa. For the most part, I
>believe this idea has emerged from modern society that does not have a
>healthy view on the appropriate role each gender plays in a community.
>
>Dov Teichman
I take offense at the above comments by Mr. Teichman. First of all, he
was originally posting about saying kaddish, which he acknowledges is
permitted for women and men alike. In the context of halakhic decisions
like this, why would his anti-feminist bias be a reason not to allow
pious women to do a permitted act?
Also, what does "I think there is a problem when..." mean? To me, it
sounds as though Mr. Teichman has a personal political agenda that is
informing his opinion on legitimate halakhic rulings. Certainly, I have
been accused of this very thing, but it is no more correct when it is an
anti-feminist bias than when a feminist bias.
As others on this list know, I am also angered by the very idea of
secular "male roles" or "female roles". Much of what people consider to
*be* these roles is based on foolish stereotyping, and is neither
halakhically nor scientifically valid.
I further suggest that "modern society" has plenty of sexism and
patriarchy, and is therefore not necessarily a force for making Jewish
practice more available to women. Rather, religious Jewish women
themselves are striving to be strong Jews. Period.
--Leah Sarah Reingold Gordon
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From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:25:38 +0200
Subject: Kaddish and women
In an article entitled "Women and Kaddish," Rabbi Yehuda Henkin quotes
his grandfather, HaGaon R' Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, who "permitted women to
say Kaddish Yatom in Shul from the women's section simultaneously with
men saying Kaddish."
Rav Henkin, the grandfather, pointed out that in olden times the person
to say Kaddish would come to prayer-reader's desk, and to have a woman
there would not be proper, but now that all stand at their own place to
say Kaddish, that problem no longer is relevant.
Rav Henkin, the grandson, suggests that the woman should say it in a
quiet voice, so as not to be heard in the men's section.
Finally, this paragraph of Rav Henkin, the grandfather, is particularly
germane in our times:
"It is known that were it not for kaddish, many would refrain from
teaching prayer to their sons and would not come to synagogue. When they
come because of kaddish they also come a bit closer to Judaism the rest
of the year, and for this reason one should not rebuff the Na'arot
(=young women) either, since it fosters closeness to Judaism."
It would seem to me that when one hears these words from one of the
Gedolei Hador of the past generation, that should carry a great deal of
weight.
I would also like to react to one of the comments that have been made in
this exchange, which bothered me greatly.
One of the respondents asked: "The question in my mind is: why does the
attendance at tefilla b'tzibbur stop when the women no longer say
kaddish?" He must be living in a dream world, where all the men who say
Kaddish keep coming to the Minyan after their year is up. In my Shul,
where everyone is religious, there have been numerous cases where MEN
came "religiously" to Shul for the 11 months, and then stopped cold
after the 11 months were up, reverting back to their less frequent
(sometimes very much less frequent) attendance. Rather than commending
the women who do come to Shul out of deep feeling of a need to do so
during that time, this respondent would rather have them stay at home. I
find that attitude demeaning to women.
Our Shul has occasionally had women who came to Shul throughout their
Aveilut year - every single day. Out of sensitivity for the women, there
would almost always be a man who would start saying Kaddish if there was
no Chiyuv, so that the woman could say it. We also have a few young
women who come to Shul in the weekdays, simply to daven there.
Shmuel Himelstein
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From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:28:30 +0100
Subject: Re: Kaddish in Shiloh
> From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote:
>> Here at Shiloh, Miriam Merzbach (nee Picard) undertook the year-long
>> recital of Kaddish for her father, a founder of a Yeshiva High School
>> in Paris. She recited it quietly but daily.
> The sine qua non of Qaddish is to cause the congregation to proclaim
> "Amen, yhey shmeh rabbah mvorakh me`atah v`ad `olam" in response to
> one's recitation. To accomplish this, one's recitation must be heard by
> the congregation. A person of either sex who recites Qaddish "quietly
> but daily" is quietly but daily renouncing the main purpose of Qaddish.
The Pnei Baruch, Siman 34:37 Footnote 70 brings several authorities that
endorse the quiet recitation of Kaddish while at least one person is
saying out loud. In particular he brings a Teshuva of the Yaskil Avdi
that when a person recites Kaddish quietly word for word with the
Shaliach Tzibbur, the Tzibbur's answer of "Omein" applies to his Kaddish
as well.
In Siman 34:20 he deals with the question of a daughter saying
Kaddish. He brings a minority opinion that she may say Kaddish in a
Minyan at home. Most of the Poskim, however, hold that she may not say
Kaddish, even at home, and that if she wants to afford merit to her
parent she should listen very carefully to the Kaddish recited by the
men and have proper Kavana [intention] when answering "Omein" and
thereby her thoughts will be considered as if she had recited Kaddish
for her parent.
Stephen Phillips
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:04:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Minyan and the Great Divide
But a person who is aware of the nature of Shabbat and its
prohibitions and chooses not to observe it, for whatever reason,
or a person who knowingly and spitefully (not for personal gain or
pleasure) violates any commandment -- such a person is indeed not
counted towards a minyan.
Anonymous assumes that humans are mind-readers, judges of actions that
should be judged by God alone. Since that is not the case--humans are
not mind readers, and should not judge others on issues where they have
nothing to go on except for the fact that a guy isn't wearing a
kippah--the whole point is moot.
jeanette
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From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:17 +0200
Subject: Re: Minyan and the Great Divide
Anonymous wrote:
>There are many poskim (decisors) who make an exception for those who did
>not have the benefit of a Jewish education and are thus unaware of either
>the prohibitions or of their severity, a concept known as "tinok
>shenishbah bein hanochrim" (a child captured by non-Jews, and hence
>unaware of the basic obligations of Judaism). But a person who is aware
>of the nature of Shabbat and its prohibitions and chooses not to observe
>it, for whatever reason, or a person who knowingly and spitefully (not for
>personal gain or pleasure) violates any commandment -- such a person is
>indeed not counted towards a minyan.
My only thought, in the context of the original story, is that, as far
as I know, we do not go around asking potential members of any minyan
whether they fall into the "forbidden" categories. (Can you imagine
going up to someone and asking whether they are a mechallel shabbos - a
Shabbat desecrator?!)
Don't all Jews have a chazakah (presumption) of being acceptable, until
we know for certain that they are not?
And, as I understood it, the application of the category "tinok
she-nishba le'vein hanochrim" (a child who was taken prisoner among the
gentiles) is generally applied broadly, to those whose education was
deficient and, as a result, do not understand the true value of the
mitzvot.
Perhaps we could consider a parallel: One who betroths a woman, saying
"Harei at etc. ... on condition that I am a tzaddik gamur (totally
righteous person)" - the kiddushin is valid (at least lechumrah), since
we have to take into account the possibility that he did teshuvah at
that moment. Subjective thought: I would suspect that even one who is
not particularly observant, when approached to join a minyan, may feel
some regret at not being a "perfect" Jew. Perhaps at that moment he
becomes a ba'al teshuvah, and should certainly be included in the
minyan.
Respectfully,
Perry Zamek
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:26:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Minyan and the Great Divide
>In response to someone who wrote, "Only frum Jews can be counted towards
>a minyan," the following comment appeared: "Who teaches these people
>these disgusting lies? Why are they even in people's heads?"
>
>One reason it might be in people's heads is because it's not that far
>from the truth. A person who commits sins l'hachis (that is, to anger
>G-d, rather than to satisfy one's desires and appetites), or one who
>practices idolatry or violates Shabbat regardless of motivation, does
>not count towards a minyan. (See Mishna Brura 55:46).
>
>There are many poskim (decisors) who make an exception for those who did
>not have the benefit of a Jewish education and are thus unaware of
>either the prohibitions or of their severity, a concept known as "tinok
>shenishbah bein hanochrim" (a child captured by non-Jews, and hence
>unaware of the basic obligations of Judaism). But a person who is aware
>of the nature of Shabbat and its prohibitions and chooses not to observe
>it, for whatever reason, or a person who knowingly and spitefully (not
>for personal gain or pleasure) violates any commandment -- such a person
>is indeed not counted towards a minyan.
Not to take the anonymous author of the above to task -- but in his /
her second paragraph "It's not that far from the truth." -- is truth
shades of gray or absolute?
More to the point -- does one looks at a Jew who is not observant and
see someone who is "not yet observant" or as someone who is angry with
HaShem, etc. ....
More than just whether to count them in the minyan -- do you try to lift
them up or do you put them down.
This past Shabbos afternoon as my wife and I were walking to a shiur we
came across a young couple, he dressed in T-shirt and jeans and no
Yarmulke, she carrying a baby. We smiled at the baby (as grandparents
are want to do) And they each wished us a "Good Shabbos" -- we of course
replied -- The pintel Yid is still there.
Of course a lot of people said Good Shabbos to me this past Shabbos, but
this encounter is the one I'm holding on to.
Is it not our obligation to reach out and be inclusive?
Carl Singer
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:54:37 +0100
Subject: Re: Other Synagogues (formerly Kaddish)
on 16/5/05 11:34 am, Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote:
> Martin writes:
>> I have never met a woman who has made the effort to attend
>> shul three times a day, or at least once, to say kaddish regularly for
>> the whole eleven months...The only time I have ever seen women in shul
>> on an ordinary weekday morning is those few of German ancestry..."
>
> well, as we all deal with logic and rationality in our Halachic
> discussions, the question Martin now should be asking is: is his schule
> unique or should he be visiting other synagogues in order to get to know
> and appreciate expanded Jewish customs which, while new and out-of-the
> ordinary, are not technically wrong - or, as he does, participate in
> forums like MailJewish which provide all of us insights from around the
> world when we can't physically be in Israel, England, New York, Warsaw,
> India, Shanghai, etc.?
The Gemara in Berakhot tells us that we should have a fixed place to
pray. While it may not be possible to do so at every tephillah, the
idea of 'shul-hopping' as Yisrael seems to suggest surely is in direct
contradiction to this. I would not opt to daven in any other shul
except, obviously, when I am out of town or otherwise occupied (e.g. at
a shiur or at work) at the time.
Mail-jewish may be a useful forum for learning about other people's
customs but I think that my shul is probably the only one in Manchester
which does occasionally have women come on ordinary weekdays (when they
have yahrzeit) and we open the ladies' shul for them. Our minhag is that
only one person says each kaddish so they never do so.
As David Cohen quite rightly notes (ibid.):
"It seems that we have elevated the saying of kaddish as THE way of
honoring our parents after their death, when the essence of the
obligation is PRAYING...and yet right after the eleven months are
over...."
In this he is merely echoing what the Kitsur Shulchan Arukh writes that
learning and good deeds are far more effective in honouring the deceased
than saying kaddish; we should set our priorities correctly.
Martin Stern
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From: Louis Finkelman <louis.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:39:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Women and Kaddish
Martin Stern wrote: I have never met a woman who has made the effort to
attend shul three times a day, or at least once, to say kaddish
regularly for the whole eleven months. Do any other members of
mail-jewish know of any? The only time I have ever seen women in shul on
an ordinary weekday morning is those few of German ancestry (and no
small children to care for) who come when they have yahrzeit.
Dear Martin:
You specifically mentioned women of German ancestry, and that reminded
me that there were some who attended services daily at Kahal Adas
Yeshurun in Washington Heights in the 1970s.
As for kaddish, the responsa literature reports situations in which
women did (and do) say kaddish. Some of these responsa date back more
than 300 years. Some rabbis have attempted to quash this practice,
others have upheld it. For a sampling of such responsa, see "The Female
Voice of Kaddish" by Rochelle Millen, in "Jewish Legal Writings by
Women" (Jerusalem: Urim, 1998). See also the discussion in Leon
Wiesteltier's "Kaddish" (New York: Knopf, 1998), on page 177 and
elsewhere.
Shalom,
Eliezer Finkelman.
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End of Volume 47 Issue 97
