Volume 48 Number 21
                    Produced: Mon May 30 10:39:19 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread
         [Immanuel Burton]
Chometz after Pesach
         [Tzvi Stein]
counting for Minyan
         [Irwin Weiss]
Counting to a Minyan
         [Sholom & Esther Parnes]
Eating at parent's house - kibud Av v'Aym
         [Carl Singer]
Eating in other people's homes
         [Carl Singer]
Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans
         [Stephen Colman]
Women with [their exclusively own?] Small Children (2)
         [Rise Goldstein, Martin Stern]


From: Immanuel Burton <iburton@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:14:13 +0100
Subject: Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread

The Sephardi Kashrut Authority in the United Kingdom has recently
approved as kosher a range of bread products produced by Allied
Bakeries.  For more information see:


Apart from the bagels, these products are not Pas Yisroel, i.e. not
baked by Jews.  My understanding of the issues concerning bread baked by
non-Jews is that one may not purchase it in a place where Jewish-baked
bread is available.  So, whereas one could buy an Allied Bakeries loaf
if one finds oneself far from a Jewish bakery, one could not buy one in
a Jewish area.  Obviously if one is going to buy non-Jewish-baked bread
then all the ingredients and equipment used must be kosher.

I have the following two questions concerning this recent approval:

(1) Does the prohibition apply if there are no equivalent products
available from a Jewish bakery, e.g. crumpets?

(2) Does price make any difference?  A colleague of mine told me that he
saw Kingsmill (one of the Allied Bakeries brands) bread on sale at 35p a
loaf, which is almost a quarter the price of a loaf from a Jewish
bakery.  In other words, is there an obligation to spend a
proportionally higher amount of money in buying bread from a Jewish
bakery instead of the mass-produced Allied Bakeries products?  (I
presume there are two aspects to this: buying Jewish baked bread as
opposed to non-Jewish baked bread when the non-Jewish-baked bread is
very much cheaper, and supporting a Jewish tradesman as opposed to
buying from a non-Jewish emporium when the non-Jew is charging much less
- I am more interested at this stage in the former.)

Immanuel Burton.


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:42:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Chometz after Pesach

> From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
> I was recently in a shiur in the shul in Ramar Elchanan in Bnei Brak.
> Normally crackers are served in the shiur. In this shiur the rabbi
> explained that no crackers would be served since it was only a few weeks
> after Pesach.
> I was completely amazed by this. Anything brought into the shul has the
> severest charedi hasgacha. The store where it would have been bought
> would be owned by religious people from Bnei Brak. What is the problem?

Ahh... another "Israelism"... you are really taking me back! :)

Very likely, even the stores themselves would not have crackers.  The
reason is that some people are strict to not eat even chometz that was
sold to a gentile over Pesach.  The only chometz they eat is that which
was made after Pesach, from flour that was milled after Pesach.  They do
not want to rely on "mechiras chometz", even that which was done by
someone else (i.e. a store, factory, or warehouse).

The reason for the strictness even with regards to the flour, is that
regular flour may itself be chometz, due to it becoming wet during
processing.  Another possibility for these people is to eat chometz that
was made after Pesach, from "matzo flour" that was milled before Pesach.
The gigantic "Angel's" bakery uses this method ("matzo flour") for their
products after Pesach until they can get freshly milled regular flour.


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:47:15 -0400
Subject: counting for Minyan

When I was a kid we lived very close to the local Orthodox shul.  They
would call our house if they were short for a minyan, and could
sometimes get my father, my brother and me.  The Rav was and is a highly
respected Rav in the Silver Spring, Md. area.  While I suspect we might
not have been the first on the list to call, the fact that we were
members of the local Conservative shul and not Shomer Shabbat didn't
seem to bother them.

Irwin E. Weiss, Esq.
Baltimore, MD 21286


From: Sholom & Esther Parnes <merbe@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:34:48 +0200
Subject: Counting to a Minyan

This has actually happened to me with slight variations.

Once, in my single days, (circa last century) I was walking through Meah
Shearim with a friend. Both of us were wearing crocheted kippot.  It was
Mincha time and we went to the Meah Shearim shteiblich were thay have
numerous prayer rooms and where the prayer starts as soon as there is a
minyan. There was a handful of local residents when we walked in, took
siddurim and sat down to wait for a minyan. Within minutes we were ten
in total and yet the service did not start. It was only about 5 minutes
later when two more locals joined us did they "klop" and say

Nothing was said to us outright but we did have the feeling that we were
somehow not being counted there.

It seems that Shmuels relative would not have to embarass himself by
saying, "I'm a Zionist," !


Sholom & Esther Parnes

> From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
> Those of you who have walked through Meah Shearim probably remember the
> sign there that reads: "Zionists are not Jews." (Interestingly enough,
> the Hebrew on the sign - maybe because Hebrew reads from right to left -
> reads in translation: "Jews are not Zionists.")
> A relative of mine told me that his dream was to be in Meah Shearim
> where there were nine other men waiting for a Minyan, whereupon he would
> announce "I'm a Zionist," and would see what would happen.


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:22:45 -0400
Subject: Eating at parent's house - kibud Av v'Aym

Kashrush aside (my late mother-in-law, ztl, kept a kosher home, so that
wasn't the issue) there is much stored up emotion when it comes to a
realization that the gauntlet has passed to another generation.  When
it's easier for the adult daughter to, for example, make the Pesach
Seder than for the mother or grandmother to do so.  Or when it's more
practical to bring an already cooked brisket when visiting with for a
week with all the children, rather than having mom go to the extra work.

It is here, too, that one must be careful re: Kibbud Av v'Aym. 


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:03:28 -0400
Subject: Eating in other people's homes

This sounds all too familiar. 

Although one could ask, politely, that "we keep ..... will that be a
problem."  Rather than "where do you get your meat?"

We've had some visitors who shuddered while taking a glass of water in
disposable cup.  On the other hand I recall late one evening a
mischulach came to our door looking somewhat bedraggled.  My wife asked
him if he had had dinner -- this old, European Rabbi sat down with a
brocha (not a shaileh) and ate.

Similarly, we had neighbors invite us for lunch, which we happily
accepted.  When we reciprocated the invitation, they kept making excuses
- 'til it became obvious that they wouldn't eat in our home.
Interestingly enough 20 years ago they would have eaten at McDonalds --
apparently their road back didn't contain enough learning about bain
adam l'chavayroh.

One can posit that some people keep stringencies that precludes them
from eating in other's homes. Or one can assert much less charitable
reasoning -- on a case-by-case basis.

Carl Singer


From: <StephenColman2@...> (Stephen Colman)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 06:34:42 EDT
Subject: Re: Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans

>      Today Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans (sic) have an O-U hechser.

However, in the UK, local production of this product does not have any
Hechsher, and as a result of this discussion, yesterday afternoon (26th
May)I asked Rabbi Conway - Head of London Beis Din Kashrus Dept -
whether Heinz Baked Beanz are kosher and he categorically told me that
they are not kosher.

I am only mentioning this for clarification in case any vistors to the
UK assume that the UK product has the same hashgocho as in the US. By
the way, it is also worth mentioning that the London Beis Din produce a
very comprehensive annual kashrus guide for foods available in the UK
both with a hechsher and also without a hechsher but which are approved
by them.


From: Rise Goldstein <rbgoldstein@...>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:56:47 -0700
Subject: RE: Women with [their exclusively own?] Small Children

Martin Stern wrote, in response to Leah S. Gordon:  

> Men (i.e. males) are obligated in communal prayer, women
> (i.e. females) are not.  While it is highly commendable for women to
> come, this is entirely voluntary [...]. Therefore in families with
> small children who are too young to come to shul [...], the mother
> should stay at home with them and not expect the whole congregation to
> be disrupted.

At least in communities of any significant size, it seems to me that
there are solutions that don't require mothers of small children to be
confined at home all Shabbat, every Shabbat--not even all Shabbat
morning, every Shabbat morning.  As but one example, a couple of my
dearest friends who are some of the most dedicated and responsible
parents I've ever seen lived in one of the last major U.S. cities to get
an eruv.  Even if this hadn't been the case, however, they recognized
from the beginning the importance of qeddushat beit hakenesset (sanctity
of the shul) and tailoring the amount of time their small children spent
there every Shabbat to the amount of time they could reasonably, at the
developmental phases in question, be expected to behave appropriately.
One parent went to an early minyan and then came home and relieved the
other parent so the other parent could go to a later minyan.  Since
neither parent was particularly a "morning person," they took turns with
regard to which parent went to which minyan and everybody was more or
less content most of the time.  In small communities, where there may be
only one minyan on Shabbat morning, the situation may be more
challenging, but it seems to me that with a little creativity child care
solutions can usually be found that will make it possible for both
mothers (at least most mothers, most Shabbatot) and fathers to daven
with a minyan if that's a priority.

Rise Goldstein (<rbgoldstein@...>)
Silver Spring, MD

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:04:20 +0100
Subject: Re: Women with [their exclusively own?] Small Children

on 26/5/05 1:40 pm, Carl Singer at <casinger@...> wrote:

> Several thoughts here: Agreed that the whole congregation must not be
> disrupted by children or adults whose behavior is out of place.  That
> doesn't automatically translate to mothers must stay home.  Hashkomah
> minyans allow both (husband and wife) to daven if they wish to share
> child care and hubby goes to the early minyan.  Other means -- baby
> sitting co-ops, in shul child care, etc., can be set up when there is
> no hashkomah minyan.

Clearly these are better solutions but I was commenting on the problem
where they are not available yet mothers insist on bringing infants with
them so that they can say yizkor in shul, something that is not even
necessary for men.

> My greatest concern with small children in shul is that they are there
> too long.  My wife, the educator par excellence, would gradually
> increase the time our children spent in shul -- starting with coming
> for the last strains of "Ayn Kelohaynu" and working to longer and more
> meaningful experiences.

Again this is a highly sensible attitude but not everyone takes
it. There are cases where far too young children are sent for far too
long so that the mother can have a bit of peace and quiet on Shabbat

> Disruption in services really depends on many circumstances.  Adults
> talking, children crying and / or running around, etc.  all are
> perceived differently.  I somehow find a child wandering loose without
> parental supervision (what I unkindly refer to as "shul orphans") to
> be greatly disruptive.  Whereas a child sitting next to his / her
> parent even if talking / asking questions or munching on cheerios is a
> beautiful thing.  Children need to grow up in such a manner that they
> are comfortable in shul and know why they are there.

Absolutely correct but we must break the vicious circle whereby these
shul orphans grow up to be the adult chatterers.

> Attitude is important -- without a doubt my granddaughter, now almost
> 9 months old only sings when she is in shul -- others may perceive it
> as crying, but what do they know.  Seriously, there are some parents
> who, perhaps because they are used to their children's crying and
> tantrums, seem oblivious to what their children are doing in shul --
> which is a problem.  Similarly, there are grandparents who think that
> any utterance from their grandchildren is beautiful and seem oblivious
> of the noise their precious grandchild is making.

Ein adam ro'eh et nig'ei atsmo! Perhaps someone should speak to these
parents or grandparents in a non-confrontational manner and point out
the disruption they are causing. The choice of such a person, and the
timing of this admonition, is crucial so as to avoid ill-feeling and be

Martin Stern


End of Volume 48 Issue 21