Volume 48 Number 31
Produced: Thu Jun 2 4:46:43 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Accepting Psak without reviewing sources
[Stuart Pilichowski]
Administrivia
[Avi Feldblum]
Artscroll Corrections
[Chaim Wasserman]
Kiddish Erev Shavuot
[Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]
Kol
[Perets Mett]
Kol/Kal?
[David Ziants]
Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct? (4)
[Martin Stern, Mark Steiner, Mark Symons, Moshe Goldberg]
Rabbi Hildesheim
[Carl Singer]
Women playing Instrument in Band (2)
[Y. Askotzky, Nathan Lamm]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:59:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Accepting Psak without reviewing sources
From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
>mentioned? When you choose someone to be your posek you must abide by
>those decisions. To do otherwise would wreak havoc on the halachic
>process.
>I'm afraid I disagree ... though you rav gives you guidance, I feel (as
>I have said before on mail-jewish) that you are ultimately responsible
>for your actions...and this does mean (courteously) requesting sources
>and verifying opinions.
I was always under the impression that the Rav/Bet Din takes
responsibility for their psak. If the psak is wrong, i.e., the food
establishment with the Teudat Kashrut was serving non-kosher meat, are
you saying, Ari, that the individual is guilty of not checking the food
and kitchen himself?
Do I have to open my tefillin and make sure the sofer did a proper
inspection?
What am I missing in your position?
Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:39:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia
Good Morning (or whatever part of the day it is when you read this) All,
Mike pointed out to me that I incorrectly added his name, rather that
Gilad Gevaryahu's to a submission posted in issue #29 yesterday. My
apologies to Gilad on that. I've corrected the attribution in the
references to that posting in todays replies.
Avi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <Chaimwass@...> (Chaim Wasserman)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:33:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Artscroll Corrections
Harry Zeltzer asked: It seems a week does not go by without someone
commenting on errors made by ArtScroll. What are we so obsessed over
ArtScroll's errorss?
We assume that chazal were serious when they taught (Pesachim 9a)
"chazakah al chaver she'eino motzi davar mitachat yado davar she'eino
metukan"
Simply stated, Artscroll is headed by top rank talmidei chachamim.
Mistakes in printing are a given. But talmidei chachamim are held to a
higher standard.
Chaim Wasserman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:56 -0700
Subject: Kiddish Erev Shavuot
Ed "Shmuel" Norin wrote:
> This shavuot, everything will be late. This year, the holiday comes
> just about three minutes short of the latest sunset. Under halacha,
> what is the earliest time we can make kiddish on Sunday night, Erev
> Shavuot? We live in New Jersey (USA), but it would be nice to keep the
> answer generic for any location.
I think plag hamincha is the earliest time, which can be found using a
zemanim calculator like the one at
http://www.kashrut.com/zemanim/zemanim/ (which always shows standard
time, so adjust for daylight savings).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:33:20 +0100
Subject: Kol
Gilad J. Gevaryahu wrote:
Kaf Lamed in the Torah are spelled exclusively with a Kamatz Katan
(875 times) or Cholam (92 times), thus always pronounced by both
Asahkenazi and Sephardic readers as "Oh" and never "Ah". There is
but a single case in the entire Bible where Kaf Lamed has a Kamatz
Gadol and that is in Tehilim 35:10 per the masorah. Since there is
only one way to pronounce Kaf Lamed, and not two, a mistake like
that should not be listed.
Only one way?
Why should a choilom be pronounced like a komats?
Perets Mett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:16:25 +0200
Subject: Kol/Kal?
From: Bill Page <Page@...>
> the word 'kol' with a cholom instead of kal with a kamatz;
When 'kol' (=all) is sometimes spelt with a cholom, then the original
ashkenazi pronunciation (for those who follow this) is to draw it out
(kowl, kole,koyl) everyone according to his/her custom. The Israeli &
sephardi pronunciation is just to draw it out very slightly (kol).
Most of the time, this word is prefixed to the following word with a
hiphen "-", in which case it is a kametz katan (short kametz). Every
pronunciation that I know of, pronounces this "o" (shorter than
ashkenazi kametz gadol). So which pronunciation pronounces a kametz
katan similar to a patach or Israeli/Sephardi kametz gadol?
A well know exception to this that I know, is in tehillim (35) and said
in "nishmat" on shabbat and yom-tov where the verse is "kal atzmotai
tomarna..". Here "kal" exists a completely separate word. Is there an
example of this in the Tora?
David Ziants
<dziants@...>
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:26:36 +0100
Subject: Re: Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?
on 1/6/05 10:38 am, <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) wrote:
> Kaf Lamed in the Torah are spelled exclusively with a Kamatz Katan (875
> times) or Cholam (92 times), thus always pronounced by both Asahkenazi
> and Sephardic readers as "Oh" and never "Ah". There is a but single case
> in the entire Bible where Kaf Lamed has a Kamatz Gadol and that is in
> Tehilim 35:10 per the masorah.
Not entirely correct. The word Kaf Lamed with a Kamatz Gadol is also
found in Yeshaya 40,12 (Haftarah for Shabbat Nachamu) but comes,
according to the Redak in Sefer Hasherashim, from the root Kaf Vav Lamed
and means something quite different - he measured!
Incidentally, when I looked up Tehilim 35,10, I noticed that we say it
every week towards the end of Nishmat and probably nobody reads it
correctly according to the masorah! One learns something new every day.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:45:56 +0300
Subject: RE: Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?
Whether a mistake can change the meaning of a word can turn on very
subtle issues. For example, there is a phrase in Deuteronomy (Devarim),
"vezoVAXto pesax" (writing x for h and vocalizing Ashkenaz). The stress
is on the penultimate syllable (mil`el). But there are two explanations
for this stress:
(a) the verb "vezoVAXto" is past tense, in which the stress is
"naturally" penultimate;
(b) the verb "vezoVAXto" is "future" the letter vov being vov ha-hipukh.
Usually, in case (b), the word would be "vezovaxTO" (as has been pointed
out many times on mail-jewish) to distinguish case (b) from case (a).
But in this case, the proximity of the word to the word "pesax" (stress
on the first syllable) triggers another rule--namely that the stress on
"vezovaxTO" retreats so that we get the same as in case (a).
The only way to distinguish case (a) from (b) is by the word following
it, pesax. In case (a) the dagesh is dropped, as happens to the letters
b, g, d, k, p, t(av) in Hebrew after an open syllable (the two words are
treated as one because of the mercha under the first), so we get
"vezoVAXto fesax". In case (b), where we have an "unnatural"
penultimate, the dagesh is not only put into "pesax" but is a "strong"
dagesh (i.e. this dagesh has nothing to do with the usual b, g, d, k ,
p, t rule). Our Massorah treats this phrase as a case (b).
In short, if the baal koreh says "fesax" he should be corrected
(according to the rule that change of meaning requires correction)--not
because the word "pesax" changed meaning, but because "fesax" is an
indicator of the meaning of the word before.
Having said all this, I remark that in many shuls the reader is treated
like a lamb among 70 wolves, creating not only an issue of humiliating a
human being but even "tzaar baalei hayim" (the latter characterization
is meant humorously, though the originator wasa famous chassidic rebbe).
I disagree strongly with Chanah's posting about the avoidance of
possible embarrassment to a kashrus violator setting aside the laws of
kashrus (chametz after Pesach, a chicken cheeseburger), but I would just
as strongly agree with her here that it is better to go without the
reading of the Torah (rabbinic) altogether than to to humiliate the
reader publicly (a Torah prohibition).
In many cases, I find that the "wolves" make not only unnecessary
corrections, but even erroneous "corrections." Corrections should be
limited to one or two knowledgeable people who should stand close to the
reader.
Mark Steiner
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:49:06 +1000
Subject: Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?
Michael Mirsky wrote
>Bill Page asked for examples of minor errors which don't need to be
>corrected.
>To add to his list, in most cases we don't correct if the accent is put
>on the wrong syllable (ie. first syllable - mil'aiyl, or last syllable -
>mi'lra) as long as the meaning isn't changed.
>But there are a few famous cases where the meaning *is* changed and
>needs to be corrected. For example, in Vayetze when Yaakov Avinu comes
>to the well and meets Rachel, he speaks with the people there. He asks
>if they know Lavan and they anser they do, and "v'hinai Rachel bito
>*ba'AH* im hatzon". The accent on ba'ah is on the second syllable,
>meaning she is *coming* with the sheep - present tense.
>
>He continues talking with them about rolling the rock from the well, and
>then the Torah says "v'Rachel *BA'ah* im hatzon". Accent on first
>syllable -means she had come.
>So the gabbai needs to know a bit of dikduk to catch those."
It's not quite so clear. In the article that Bill Page was referring to
(that I found at
http://www.teaneckshuls.org/parsha/Bereishis/Bereishis60.doc )
Rabbi Doniel Neustadt states ...
"MAJOR MISTAKES (he classifies mistakes into Major, Minor, and Mid-size)
include...
According to SOME opinions, when the mileil or milra is read completely
wrong, to the degree that it alters the meaning of the word; e.g., the
word bahah (milra) means 'she is coming,' (present tense) while the same
word accented bahah (mileil) means 'she came' (past tense) (As explained
by Rashi, Bereishis 29:6. See Aruch ha'Shulchan O.C. 690:20 (concerning
Megilas Esther) who mentions this example).
"[However] OTHER OPINIONS maintain that this type of mistake is NOT
considered a major mistake. In their view, the exact meaning of the word
is decided by the CONTEXT in which it is written; the meaning is not
altered by the improper accentuation of the word (See Karyana D'igerta
(Harav Y. Y. Kanievsky) 1:138; Emes l'Yaakov (Harav Y. Kamenetsky) O.C.
142:1. See Dikdukei Shai, pg. 160-165, for an explanation of this
view. Note,also, that all the major poskim who discuss the laws of
correcting a ba'al koreh do not mention this type of mistake as one that
must be corrected)".
Mark Symons
Melbourne Australia
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <mgold@...> (Moshe Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:15:59 +0300
Subject: Re: Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?
> Kaf Lamed in the Torah are spelled exclusively with a Kamatz Katan
> (875 times) or Cholam (92 times), thus always pronounced by both
> Asahkenazi and Sephardic readers as "Oh" and never "Ah". There is a
> but single case in the entire Bible where Kaf Lamed has a Kamatz Gadol
> and that is in Tehilim 35:10 per the masorah.
Surely, this should be: where Kaf Lamed has a Kamatz Gadol AND THE WORD
MEANS "ALL". The word "vechal" in Yeshayahu 40:12 is a verb, meaning
"and he measured". (The verse is part of Haftarat "Nachamu".) It is read
with Kamatz Gadol.
Moshe Goldberg
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:13:15 -0400
Subject: Rabbi Hildesheim
I've gotten email from some fellow former Clevelanders who were his
talmidim.
The proper name was Rabbi Moshe Hildesheim.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:22:21 +0200
Subject: Women playing Instrument in Band
The organist of the original band (Hatav) that continues to service the
frum (incl. yeshivish) Chicago community is female. They/she have been
playing at weddings, etc. in Chicago and around he Midwest for over 20
years.
kol tuv,
Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer & examiner
<sofer@...> www.stam.net 1-888-404-STAM(7826) 718-874-8220
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Women playing Instrument in Band
At the installation of Richard Joel as president of Yeshiva University a
couple of years back, a female student played the flute. A chutzpanyak a
few rows behind me made a no-so-silent comment about "Kol Isha," but I
doubt he is as knowledgeable or religious as the dozens of Roshei
Yeshiva who sat in front, none of them moving from their places.
Nachum Lamm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 48 Issue 31
