Volume 48 Number 77
                    Produced: Fri Jul  1  4:45:23 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Brachot out of time
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
         [Perets Mett]
Jewish Watch - Technology, Innovation and Halacha
         [Janice Gelb]
Kaddish at a minyan you're not davening with
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
         [Tobias Robison]
Loan Practices
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
         [Carl A. Singer]
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Second Job / Volunteering
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
Valid Marriage - Need for Get
         [Shoshana Ziskind]
Wedding Ring on Index Finger
         [David Mescheloff]


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:54:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Brachot out of time

> From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
>>Rabbi Zelig Epstein (Rosh Yeshiva, Shaar Hatorah, Queens), probably one
>>of the senior Rosh Yeshivos in the US today, has ruled that one answers
>>amen to brachos on videos.
> Did R' Epstein write this up/explain?  What about a lifelike digitally
> faked video?

I would guess that the issue is with the *audio* immaterial of the
particular video technology.  That said, the question remains for
altered audio.

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:29:27 +0100
Subject: Hoidu

Jack Gross quoting me:

>> The first part of Hoidu until, but not including , roimemu is a
>> single passage from divrei hayomim. The rest is a collection of
>> pesukim.

and then observed:

> Actually, the selection from D.H. consists of two mizmorim -- Hodu ...
> uvinvi'ai al tarei'u, and Shiru ... v'hallel laShem -- as can be seen
> in Mordechai Breuer's editions of Tanach, and as is noted by Rav
> Schwab in his notes on Tefilla.

Very interesting.
I now understand why some communities have the minhog that baal tfilo  
says the posuk "Al tig-u bimshichoy unvinvi-ay al torei-u"  out loud.

Perets Mett


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Jewish Watch - Technology, Innovation and Halacha

[Janice sent this in with a question to me whether it was appropriate
for the group. I had recieved an email ad for this same product, and had
also thought about posting it here. Not that I'm endorsing the product,
but I think it relates to technology and how it is used in ways relating
to halachic activity. Mod.]


The Jewish Watch has all the standard everyday time-keeping features of
today's quality, digital watches. In addition, the Jewish Watch can be
set to display the Hebrew or Gregorian date, in your choice of the
Hebrew or English language.  Conversion between the two calendars is
automatic. The Hebrew dates change at sunset.

The Jewish Watch Alerts you with messages during the 
following times:

  * The time for reciting the Shema
  * Sunset
  * Candle lighting time on Erev Shabbat (It also rings 
    15 minutes in advance as a reminder)
  * The beginning of each Hebrew Calendar month.
  * The Shabbat of blessing the new month.
  * A reminder to add the additions to prayer on Hanukah and Purim
  * A reminder to add the additions to prayer on Chol Hamoed
  * The count for the Omer.
  * The Torah Portion of the week (with a choice of setting for 
    Israel or the Diaspora) 


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:16:31 +0300
Subject: Re: Kaddish at a minyan you're not davening with

>>       I was told when I was in aveilus to say kaddish only at the minyan
>>       at which I was davening.  So the answer according to that pesak is
>>       (a) EVEN if you're inside the shul already.
>I was also told this. But once, when I was davening with the early
>minyan, I got there too late for the first kaddish (after "Rabbi
>Yishmael..."), and asked the rabbi if I could hang around at the
>beginning of the later minyan and say it then. I was told I could.

This is not exactly the same situation, but if you are in one minyan and
you can either answer qedusha there, or answer "Amen yehe shemeih rabba"
to qaddish being said in the adjacent minyan at the same time, you do
the latter.

This obviously has repercussions regarding people who would not dream of
talking during qedusha, and would not dream of being quiet during



From: Tobias Robison <tobyr21@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:31:57 -0400
Subject: re: Licenses

Ari Trachtenberg suggested that:
> ...In either case, one could argue that you have some sort of moral or
> ethical imperative to abide by one of these licenses.  ...

I suggest that the wording and conditions of each specific license must
be tested against Halachah. The wording of many licenses does not
necessarily create an ethical bond with the user.

A great many software and website licenses today include a clause
stating that the vendor reserves the right to change the terms of the
license unilaterally, in any way, in the future. Such clauses may have
no legal validity (there have not been enough court cases yet) and they
might cause the license to have no halachic validity. I cannot determine
that myself, but please try to imagine a Ketuba that says the bridegroom
reserves the right to make any changes to it at any time in the future.

I am sure that using any product creates an ethical imperative to abide
by a good deal of the terms of its license. Many people today are
wrestling with the question of whether, by reserving the right to change
terms in the future, the vendor also gives the user a similar implied
right. And if so, how a user might propose changed terms and, in
general, give the vendor a chance to see and respond to the user's

- Tobias D. Robison


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:26 -0400
Subject: RE: Loan Practices

From: N Miller <nmiller@...>
> I agree wholeheartedly.  I only wish that the frum world could muster
> the same indignation at sins against fellow human beings as it does when
> gays parade in Jerusalem.

I think that the reason you do not see such obvious "indignation" is
that the loan pratices examples are seen as individuals violating the
Torah (or causing a chillul Hashem).  However, actions such as the "gay
pride" parade in Jerusalem are attempts to claim that invalid practices
are somehow *correct*.  It would be as if someone attempted to state
that eating nonKosher food is a "mitzvah" and attempted to get that
"viewpoint" spread throughout the Jewish community.  An example that
comes to mind is when the workers circles would deliberately schedule a
treif dinner/dance for Yom Kippur.  Similarly, in more modern times,
there have been Jewish Federations who would choose a nonkosher caterer
and make sure that no kosher food was available for community functions.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:26:45 -0400
Subject: Maykil/Machmir

> What do you mean by maykil/machmir perception? If a person is following
> a legitimate Rov, why would he care what others think. For example, do
> those who follow Rav Moshe's opinion of nightfall in New York (50
> minutes) care that they are viewed as meikil in the eyes of those who
> hold 72 minutes? They have a godol hador to hang their hat on.

I'll let the psychologists weigh in here -- but I think situation is
that people are NOT following a "legitimate Rov" but are searching from
a menu of opinions that reflect either their personal trends towards
maykil / machmir or their desire to fit into (or fear of not fitting
into) their contemporary communities.

Clearly those who hold 50 minutes do not care about how they are viewed
by those who hold 72 minutes.

BUT are there those who would (in isolation) hold 50 minutes, who
instead hold 72 minutes (despite their respect for / adherence to Rav
Moshe ....) in order to fit in or not to "fit out."

Carl Singer


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:09:40 -0400
Subject: Pareve

Some people have speculated that the Yiddish word "Pareve" has a Slavic
origin.  I have emailed an expert in Slavic languages (who requested I
not distribute his name) and here is his reply:


As for Pareve, I am rather stumped.  There are a few slavic roots but
none are very convincing: 

1.  p'erv-  (Belarussian, some Polish:  parv-):  meaning "first", "number
2.  par- + -v- (adj. marker)  :  meaning "pair" (clear Indo-European)
3.  po- (suffix) r(e)v -  :  meaning "to break, tear"
(In Belarussian : po = pa)

I looked through the dictionary and can't find or think  of anything else
that it could be from.    


Andy Goldfinger 


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:58:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Second Job / Volunteering

 >A question was asked if it was ethical to work at a second job or
 >volunteer, since it may be "stealing" from the primary job.  On the
 >contrary, it seems to me that if the primary employer interferes with
 >the way an employee spends his time off the job, as long as it does
 >not affect their time on the job, that empolyer is stealing from the
 >empolyee!  They are only paying the employee for a certain number of
 >hours a day.  If they try to control more than they are paying for,
 >that is stealing!

Several issues come up in response.  First of all, salaried positions
are typically not hour-based but rather job based ... you have to spend
what time is needed to do the job.  Secondly, the "as long as it does
not affect their time on the job" is a serious question ... how do you
know when there is no effect?  I seem to recall that (halachically) one
may not take a night-job because it will make you tired for the
day-job... anyone recall the sources offhand, or the precise statement
of the issue?

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:39:03 -0400
Subject: Re:  Valid Marriage - Need for Get

On Jun 22, 2005, at 5:22 AM, Carl Singer <casinger@...> wrote:
> The issues of valid marriage and the resultant need for a get are
> unfortunately topical.

I hope you don't mind if I go on a little tangent. This is a major
problem. B"H, my mother got a get a from her first husband because I
would have been in that exact situation you speak of.  Another situation
is that my mother is still halachically married to her 2nd husband, my
father, even though by secular law they've been divorced for close to 25
years.  I've been thinking of doing something about it.  One issue is my
father is extremely ignorant of things Jewish (for example, he doesn't
know what an aliyah to the torah means even though he was bar mitzvahed)
and he is always going on about being an athiest although I do think its
more out of ignorance than anything, but at the same time I'm not sure
what his response would be. He might get annoyed (a friend of mine is in
the same boat and her father got extremely angry with her) and I'd like
to prevent that if possible.

Anyway how do I go about trying to educate him and persuade him to give
my mom a get? Do I ask his local Rabbi first? (He lives near Phoenix if
that's helpful) Do I have the Rabbi talk to him?  Thank you for letting
me go off tangent here.

Shoshana Ziskind


From: David Mescheloff <david_mescheloff@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wedding Ring on Index Finger

Thanks to Dov Teichman for the list of reasons he found for placing the
ring on the index finger.  I meet with each couple four or five times
before I "perform" their wedding, about two hours each time - there's
lots to talk about and to get ready for.  I tell them the reason the
ring goes on the index finger is that it's that finger with which a
person usually receives and holds something they want most
enthusiastically and securely.  Although we often hear that a woman is
purely passive at her wedding, in fact a man doesn't do very much
either, and the woman is expected to show her enthusiastic assent to the
man's offer of kiddushin by extending her right index finger.  In
telling them of the importance of entering into kiddushin with full
intention, I tell the woman that if she finds she's changed her mind at
that moment under the chuppah, all she needs to do is not extend her
finger; I'll understand and announce through the microphone: "Everyone
is invited to the tables for a meal; we'll have a wedding ceremony -
perhaps - some other time."  (I tell the man if he changes his mind
about getting married, he should just whisper so in my ear, and I'll
make the same announcement).  Of course, I explain that "butterflies" in
the stomach and slightly cold feet is natural, and they shouldn't take
that as a sign they don't want to get married.  But if it's clear to
them that they don't want to, they shouldn't, and I'll give them full
backing (but not financial!), and help them sort out the consequences.
I am happy to say that has never happened to me at a wedding.  However,
for reasons that are beyond me, colleagues more than once have sent me
couples one of whom had decided, weeks or days before the wedding, that
he/she didn't want to marry.


End of Volume 48 Issue 77