Volume 48 Number 81
                    Produced: Sun Jul  3 16:13:35 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Kiddush Levanah - Women
         [Aliza Berger]
Loan practices
         [N Miller]
Maariv and Shavuot (3)
         [Orrin Tilevitz, Akiva Miller, Orrin Tilevitz]
         [Perets Mett]
Rosh Yeshiva or Communal Rabbi-(was Accepting Psak)
         [David Maslow]
R'YBS on evolution vs. creation
         [Joel Rich]
         [Sheila Tanenbaum]
Valid Marriage - Need for Get
         [Eitan Fiorino]
Wedding Butterflies
         [Tal Benschar]
Yiddish etymology
         [Bernard Raab]


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:40:15 +0200
Subject: Kiddush Levanah - Women

First, I am sorry I misquoted Martin Stern.

Mishnah Berurah 426:1 states regarding women and kiddush levanah:
"peturot" and "eyn tsrichin lekayma", i.e., women are not obligated to
say kiddush levanah. The clear implication is that according to him,
women are permitted to say it.

Several months ago I attended a maariv minyan on motsa'ei shabbat where
other women were also present, in Alon Shvut. The level of learning in
that community is very high, among both the men and the women. All the
men and women present said kiddush levanah.

I agree with Shayna that people should not shrink from bringing sources
to the list, no matter what they say.

Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: N Miller <nmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:32:25 -0400
Subject: Loan practices

Hillel Markowitz has a good point when he writes:

	I think that the reason you do not see such obvious
	"indignation" is that the loan pratices examples are seen as
	individuals violating the Torah (or causing a chillul Hashem).
	However, actions such as the "gay pride" parade in Jerusalem are
	attempts to claim that invalid practices are somehow *correct*.

On the face of it I tend to agree, though I would point out that usury
can as easily be a group operation.  However, rather than get lost in
quibbles, let me offer another (hypothetical) case.

After I've moved into an apartment in Boro Park, joined a shul, etc. a
neighbor spots me eating a cheeseburger in the Chinatown Macdonald (a
double aveyre?).

[Actually not, at least according to most poskim. The prohibition of
meat and milk is only when seperate they are both permitted, but if the
meat is truely not kosher, then there is no additional prohibition of
meat and milk. Avi]

After I've moved into an apartment in Boro Park, joined a shul, etc. a
neighbor discovers that I run a loan-shark operation in Chinatown.

Which of these will get me in trouble faster?

Noyekh Miller


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:58:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Maariv and Shavuot

Peretz Mett wrote:

> I am puzzled how one can make kiddush before nakht on Shmini
> Atseres,even if you eat in the sukka.  (Irrespective of the issue
> withshehecheyonu)
> Surely if it is not yet nakht, there is an obligation to say"...leisheiv
> basuko" before eating.. On the other one can hardly add "...leisheiv
> basuko" to the kiddush of Shmini Atseres!>

This assumes that one is not permitted to do a mitzvah without saying a
bracha first.  (Leishev basuka is not a birkat hanaa, as anyone who has
eaten in a sukkah in northern Europe or, for that matter, Boston in
October will testify.)  I do not believe that is the rule; for example,
if it were true, one who forgot to count the omer one day would be
barred from continuing to count.  It may be preferable to wait until
dark to make kiddush erev shemini atzeret, but IMHO it can't be required
if that is the only reason for the requirement.

From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:59:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Maariv and Shavuot

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz wrote 
> you made the point about someone who would theoretically be able to
> drive back from shul before the zman on Shabbos.  I think that this is
> a case of "lo shchiach" (does not occur) since someone who is in shul
> would be there to daven. There are people who go to the early minyon
> for mincha, but go to a later minyon for kabbalos shabbos.  I do not
> think that one could daven ma'ariv without first having said kabbalos
> shabbos.

I agree that it would be very unusual for someone to need to do these
things. But sometimes odd situations occur, and the halacha tells us how
to deal with them. For example, it is very unusual for someone to need
to say Havdala or Maariv on Shabbos afternoon, but if the need does
arise, the halacha does tell us how to deal with it.

So too, the halacha ought to tell us how to deal with a person who needs
to daven Maariv on Friday afternoon without accepting Shabbos. I can
think of many examples of such a thing. Suppose a person cannot get to
shul on Shabbos without doing a melacha. Perhaps his electric wheelchair
is not usable on Shabbos, or perhaps his wheelchair is not electric but
it can't be brought outside without an eruv, or perhaps he doesn't need
a wheelchair but the only shul is ten miles away. Or it could have
nothing to do with shul. Maybe he'll be undergoing some surgery starting
five minutes before Friday's sunset, and he wants to daven maariv now
because he won't be able to later, yet he doesn't want to be forbidden
to use the phone. The exact circumstances are irrelevant.

In such cases, he is willing to omit the Kabalas Shabbos sections, and
say Maariv with the explicit intention that he is NOT accepting Shabbos.
If the halacha does not allow him to have such an intention, then so be
it. But maybe the halacha will allow him to do it, so he is now asking
the question. (I don't mean to suggest that this is a practical question
for me personally. For me, this is all abstract Torah study, in the
context of learning the issues involved.)

He continued: 
> Similarly, I had thought that the psak was that Ata Chonantanu was
> considered the same as Hamavdil as far as doing melacha was concerned.
> Thus, I had never heard about being able to daven ma'ariv before the
> actual end of Shabbos. Of course, I should note that it is impossible
> to make havdalah before the end of Shabbos because it involves a
> melacha (lighting a fire) and the bracha of boreh me'orei ha'eish is
> an explicit statement as well.

But now you have heard of it. And if you look at the source I quoted
earlier -- Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayim 293:3 -- you'll see that it says
to omit the bracha on the fire. One simply takes his cup of wine (or
whatever) and says Hagafen and Hamavdil. I suppose he would also say the
bracha on the spices too (since that Shulchan Aruch says to omit the
fire but doesn't say to omit the spices).

Akiva Miller

From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 06:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Maariv and Shavuot

In response to Kenneth Miller's posting:

My concern about plag mincha relates to the erev shabbat minyan that
straddles it.  Shabbat cannot come in before plag mincha, and one cannot
daven maariv before plag mincha.  I think both of those points are
clear.  If saying mizmor shir constitutes acceptance of shabbat, then it
must be said after plag mincha, not before; I am not sure that is the
common practice at these minyanim.  If it may be said before plag
mincha, then it seems to be maariv that triggers shabbat acceptance, in
which case maariv is not irrelevant to that acceptace.

My last point: I'm not saying there was a problem with davening early on
Rosh Hashana or shevii shel pesach; someone--you?--seemed to say that
one could not say shehecheyanu before nightfall because it was not
"bazeman hazeh".  Yet we do routinely say shehecheyanu before nightfall
on erev rosh hashana, and for that matter on erev yom kippur after kol
nidre.  (Of course, we do not say it on the last day(s) of Pesach).

Incidentally, since safek berachot lehakeil, if you're going to eat in
the sukka anyway, I'm not certain that one's possible inability to say
leishev basuka should necessarily be sufficient reason to have to wait
for nightfall, although of course certainty is always best.


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:09:29 +0100
Subject: Parev

I am surprised that Andy's Slavic expert could not come up with the

The Yiddish word for steam is 'pa-re' - surely from a Slavic root.

Now steam has no taste smell or colour, it is truly neutral.

So anything which is neutral is 'steam-like' or 'pare-v' using the 'v'
adjective marker

That's my opinion anyway.

Perets Mett


From: David Maslow <maslowd@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:55:47 -0400 
Subject: Rosh Yeshiva or Communal Rabbi-(was Accepting Psak)

In MJ 74, Carl Singer mentioned the ease of long distance psak instead
of relying on the communal rabbi. With so many people spending a number
of post high school- or even post-college years in yeshiva before
marrying and entering the workforce, the loyalty of many of these folks
remains with the yeshiva. If the Yeshiva is in the community, then the
community synagogue and its rabbi play second fiddle to the yeshiva bais
medrash minyan and rosh yeshiva musar and psak for these
individuals. Even when the yeshiva is in another community, the loyalty
may remain with that institution.  This can have a serious detrimental
effect on the neighborhood shuls and on the community in general.

Steven Oppenheimer had an article in the Journal of Halacha and
Contemporary Society a few issues ago on the Breakaway Minyan.  In it,
he brought several opinions that yeshivas/kollels in a community with a
shul should not start their own minyan, in part to avoid weakening the
community minyan and the community.  It is encouraging to hear the
stories of roshei yeshiva that defer psak to the communal rabbi.

David E. Maslow


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:56:10 -0400 
Subject: R'YBS on evolution vs. creation

Given the recent discussions on reconciling reason and revelation and
book bannings, I found the following a great tap on the shoulder to
remind me what the real issue is:

"We could find a solution of some kind to this controversy. What in fact
is theoretically irreconcilable is the concept of man as the bearer of
the divine image with the equaling of man and animal-plant existences.
In other words, the ontic autonomy or heteronomy of man is the problem.
The Bible and Greek philosophical thought separated man from the flora
and the fauna; science brought him back to his organic co-beings."

The Emergence of Ethical Man -  Rabbi Joseph B Soloveitchik - Page 5

Joel Rich


From: Sheila Tanenbaum <sheilatan@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:14:36 -0400
Subject: Shtadlan

The word comes from the same root as "le'hishtadel" Shidul is to
intervene The shtadlan was the person in the jewish community who
interceded with the political officials/king, etc.

Sheila Tanenbaum


From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:58:45 -0400
Subject: RE: Valid Marriage - Need for Get

> From: Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...>
> <snip>
> Anyway how do I go about trying to educate him and persuade him to give
> my mom a get? Do I ask his local Rabbi first? (He lives near Phoenix if
> that's helpful) Do I have the Rabbi talk to him?  Thank you for letting
> me go off tangent here.

Try the organization Kayama (www.kayama.org) which is dedicated to
helping non-observant Jews obtain gitten.  I know several people
involved in the organization and they arrange many many gitten each year
that would have never been written without their help.



From: Tal Benschar <tbenschar@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:08:00 -0400
Subject: Wedding Butterflies

Rabbi David Mescheloff wrote a very informative e-mail about preparing
the chosson and kallah for the wedding.

On part I found rather funny:

>In telling them of the importance of entering into kiddushin with full
>intention, I tell the woman that if she finds she's changed her mind at
>that moment under the chuppah, all she needs to do is not extend her
>finger; I'll understand and announce through the microphone: "Everyone
>is invited to the tables for a meal; we'll have a wedding ceremony -
>perhaps - some other time."  (I tell the man if he changes his mind
>about getting married, he should just whisper so in my ear, and I'll
>make the same announcement).

Has this happened often?  

Seems so nonchalant -- "Weddings off, but the meal is being served, you
have your choice of chicken or vegetable soup."

One would think that such an announcement would inspire some reaction
among the assembled.


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:11:37 -0400
Subject: RE: Yiddish etymology

>From: N Miller
>Bernard Raab and I must be descended from the same line of akshonim.  

OK, I will now admit I have been just a little akshon-ish about this.
Having done a bit of research instead of just scratching my...
ever-volatile memory cells, I am now ready to admit that Noyekh Miller
has been right about this from the beginning. It seems that "Shtadlan"
is indeed a Hebrew word first, even in modern Hebrew, meaning a
lobbyist(!)  in modern English, which of course would be the source of
the same word in Yiddish.

I would gladly eat crow if it were a kosher bird; instead I beg mechilla
from Noyekh Miller.

b'shalom--Bernie R.


End of Volume 48 Issue 81