Volume 49 Number 01
                    Produced: Fri Jul 15  6:27:25 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Communal Rabbi vs. Rosh Yeshivah
         [Jack Gross]
Early Maariv
         [Jonathan Sperling]
Extra Kadishes
         [Harry Weiss]
Family splitting for the summer
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Halacha and Business Competition
         [Ira Bauman]
Mixed Swimming (3)
         [Martin Stern, Ari Trachtenberg, Dov Teichman]
Pareve, stami, and bur
Rosh Yeshiva or Communal Rabbi
         [Jonathan Sperling]
         [Shlomo & Syma Spiro]
Vchen haminhag vein lshanot
         [Joel Rich]
Where is the border
         [Ari Trachtenberg]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:15:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

We have closed out volume 48 and will be starting volume 59 with this
issue. I'd like to thank all the active participants on the list for
making this, in my opinion, one of the best discussion groups on the
internet that I know of. It is due to each of your submissions that we
are able to continue a positive and interesting dialog among ourselves
for as long as we have.

I would also like to take this oppertunity to thank all those who have
made a subscription donation during the last year. I have not been good
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Thanks in advance to all, and looking forward to another great volume of



From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:45:19 -0400
Subject: Communal Rabbi vs. Rosh Yeshivah

> Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky z"l is quoted as having said that to pasken a
> sh'eilah one must be fluent in every Tosefos in Shas.  How many
> communal Rabbis can make this claim?

Note that Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky's career included both: He served as a
Rov in Toronto before moving to New York.


From: Jonathan Sperling <jsperling@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:16:13 -0400
Subject: Early Maariv

Hillel Markowitz wrote:

> As I recall the tshuva, Rav Moshe after discussing the wife, deals with
> the husband who is also wants to wait for the zman (such as arriving in
> the mountains later than the minyon though well before the final zman).
> I believe he states in both cases that they may accept shabbos later.

Hiller is correct; this teshuva was discussed a couple of years ago on
MJ at http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v39/mj_v39i70.html#CVT.


From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:10:06 -0700
Subject: Extra Kadishes

A while back we had an unusual situation at the Chabad here.  There was
a visitor from Crown Heights who insisted on having 16 Kaddishes.  (The
minyan for mincha came in after most people finished davining.)  Has
anyone heard such a thing?


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:10:20 EDT
Subject: Family splitting for the summer

I have wondered about the family split that goes on in so many frum
homes for the summer when the wife and kids go to the country and leave
their husbands at home.  Any thoughts on how this effects Shalom Bayis,
parenting, etc?

Chaim Shapiro


From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:13:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Halacha and Business Competition

> I know of some people who take this attitude to an extreme.  There are
> some who say you aren't allowed to buy any food (even with O-U
> certification) from a non-Jewish store, because it is depriving a Jew
> of his parnassa

An interesting situation exists in my community.  A local liquor store
has been serving the kosher consumers for the last twenty years or so.
Even though he is non-Jewish, he is very knowledgeable about kosher
wines and other products.  He has a very large selection and about a
quarter of his very large store is devoted to kosher and Israeli
products.  He has organized wine sales in our shul and set up wine
tastings for the benefit of the shul.

Recently, a frum Jew opened a liquor store in town.  He's probably a
fine fellow and despite having a smaller store and selection, only sells
kosher wines.  It's been suggested to me that I should transfer my
patronage to that store because I should support a fellow Jew.  I hate
leaving my present store since the owner is always so accomodating.
What message would I be giving to a non-Jew who wants to service the
frum community?  What is the prevailing opinion?  Can I stay or should I

Ira Bauman


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:09:17 +0100
Subject: Re: Mixed Swimming

on 14/7/05 10:33 am, Sam Gamoran <SGamoran@...> wrote:
> As we did some laps in the indoor pool I started wondering about the
> limits of mixed swimming.  Is mixed swimming: - an inherently forbidden
> act - an act which is forbidden because it could lead to frivolity and
> improper behavior - an act which is forbidden only because the clothing
> in which it is done is immodest.
> Ignoring the practicality of it, if you believe the latter to be true
> then mixed swimming while wearing street clothes ought to be permitted.

This does not follow since it is the nature of wet clothes to stick
fairly closely to the body and thereby become immodest 'tight fitting'

> What about a pool that has a mechitza down the middle?

Is this meant to be a serious suggestion? For purposes of tsniut, a
rigid opaque barrier from floor to ceiling would be required which
divided not merely the pool but the whole room/area in which it was. In
that case one might just as well have two separate pools. The leniencies
for a mechitsah in a shul presuppose that everyone is dressed
appropriately as regards tsniut e.g. all the married women have their
hair covered. It is only in place to avoid frivolous inter-gender
interactions not actual sexual attraction.

Martin Stern

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:25:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Mixed Swimming

> Ignoring the practicality of it, if you believe the latter to be true
> then mixed swimming while wearing street clothes ought to be permitted.

In fact, I have seen frum women doing this, mostly on public beaches.

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>

From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:06:12 EDT
Subject: Re: Mixed Swimming

I once asked Rabbi Hershel Shachter that same question. He told me the
prohibition of mixed swimming is due to the immodest dress and the
prohibition of seeing immodesty. I then asked what about if the women
are fully covered like the old swimming costumes. He replied that the
very nature of the clothes being wet and clingy is also problematic. He
mentioned a certain Rov who, due to his extremely poor eyesight, would
take off his glasses and swim even if there were women around since he
couldn't see anything anyway.

Dov Teichman


From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:40:57 -0400
Subject: Pareve, stami, and bur

An Israeli friend tells me that though she knows pareve and stami, her
family uses BUR (oo sound) for pareve.  IIRC, one of her parents is from
near Vilna and the other Poland or White Russia.  She's going to ask her
mother if this was her father's term or both parents' and asks if anyone
knows the origin or meaning of bur?

<meirman@...>  Baltimore, MD, USA


From: Jonathan Sperling <jsperling@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:24:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Rosh Yeshiva or Communal Rabbi

Shaul Mashbaum wrote:

> R. Herschel Schacter, rosh yeshiva of RIETS, in the course of a lecture
> to YU alumni in Israel, bemoaned the common practice in Israel of
> bringing questions to R. Elyashiv instead of the local rav. (I am
> convinced that he referred specifically to R. Elyashiv because of the
> locale - Israel; he would have made the same point in the States,
> referring to a different rabbinic figure).

I heard RHS make the same point in the States this year, but he still
used R' Elyashiv as his example . . .


From: Shlomo & Syma Spiro <spiro@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:22:23 +0200
Subject: Shtadlan

bh, yom hamishi  Balak

I would venture that shtadlan comes from the Hebrew shadel . Ibn Shoshan
gives the meaning pitah, ledaber el ha lev.  that is, seduce, speak to
the heart. Perhaps even pander.  That's what the shtadlanim did, speak
to the heart of the rulers, seducing them perhaps with money or what
else to rescind decrees threatening Jews.  (See also Kiddushin 31a that
Potiphar's wife in her attempts to seduce Joseph meshadlaso bdevarim and
Yoma 35b that a son respects his mother more than his father because
meshadlaso bedevorim.

Shtaht is a Yiddish word, and in old Europe it meant a seat in the


From: <joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:02:16 +0000
Subject: Vchen haminhag vein lshanot

This language, or something like it, appears frequently in the Rama. On
other occasions he says just vchen haminhag.

Does anyone know a reason for or implication of the different formulations? 

Joel Rich 


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:28:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Where is the border

> Praying for the dead to come back is more problematic.  First off, the
> definition of "dead" has changed over time.  For instance, modern
> medicing can treat people with stopped hearts - a condition that would
> be defined as "dead" 100 years ago.  So praying for a recently-dead
> person to recover may not be praying for the impossible.  (Although
> praying for the recovery of someone that's been dead and buried for
> several years certainly would be.)

What about tchiyat hametim (resurrection of the dead with the coming of
the moshiach).  I think that one could fairly argue that, having not
understood the laws of nature completely (something that will probably
always be the case), we really don't know what is impossible and what is
not.  As such, this prohibition only makes sense in terms of things that
you think are impossible.

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


End of Volume 49 Issue 1