Volume 49 Number 26
                    Produced: Mon Aug  1  6:30:01 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrative Idea (5)
         [Janice Gelb, Bernard Raab, Sam Gamoran, Ari Trachtenberg,
Caela Kaplowitz]
         [Aryeh Gielchinsky]
Congratulations to another group of new olim
         [Jacob Richman]
New Israeli Educational Stamps Posted Online
         [Jacob Richman]
Reality really bites/How we teach our kids.
         [Jeanette Friedman]
The State of Jewish Education
         [Carl A. Singer]
Urgent plea for liver transplant
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Administrative Idea

--- Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...> wrote:
  Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>

> [I have now gotten back access to the mail-jewish web page after loosing
> my ftp password etc, so I think this would be a feasible thing to
> do. The main issue I would see is how would people submit material for
> it? If people submit in html format, and the main activity is just
> uploading and updating an index file, that is not much of an issue. If
> we need to take text, MS Word, pictures etc and creating an HTML object
> from that, I would need someone to volunteer to do that work. It should
> not be any issue then giving that person access to that folder to manage
> it. So I am open to the idea. Mod]

I believe there is software for something called a "wiki" (I don't know
much about the technical details) that would enable people to freely put
content up without the need for a password. I hope that someone on the
list is more technically enlightened and could describe for the
moderator how such things work.

-- Janice

From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:27:20 -0400
Subject: RE: Administrative Idea

>From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
>Is it feasible - technologically and financially - to set up a section
>of the MailJewish site where the various list members could put up some
>bio info and if they want a picture so that we can feel a bit more of a
>I find it frustrating to "argue" and "dialogue" with faceless people who
>I try to imagine what they look at and what they have done.
>Also, if I knew someone was older, maybe I'd be more circumspect in
>language, etc.
>What does the moderator think?

Personally, I find it fascinating to get to know the folks on MJ by
their submissions (and, yes, the occasional personal revelation). One of
the great features of a discussion group like this is that your ideas
get attacked , or not, for themselves, and not out of some sense of
"respect" for age or community standing. We learn who is knowledgable in
what subject by their submissions and not by their titles, degrees or
credentials. I find this wholly refreshing and would hate to lose this

IMHO, "what they look at and what they have done" should be the last
thing to concern us here, if we want to preserve the best feature of
this group. In fact, I do know this information for two or three of our
listers, and am constrained in how I respond to them as a result. It
would be a shame if this became the norm for the group. It would then
become what passes for "polite conversation" rather than an honest and
unfettered exchage of ideas, limited only by our own sense of respect
for fellow Jews and by the moderator's sense of propriety.

I vote No to Yisrael's suggestion--Bernie R.

From: Sam Gamoran <SGamoran@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:35:42 +0300
Subject: RE: Administrative Idea

Would it be possible to set up a Wiki where everyone can post their own?

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:35:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Administrative Idea

From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
> I find it frustrating to "argue" and "dialogue" with faceless people who
> I try to imagine what they look at and what they have done.
> Also, if I knew someone was older, maybe I'd be more circumspect in
> language, etc.

Though I respect Yisrael's feelings, I would like to argue ardently
*against* doing this.  I think that one of the wonderful things about
mail-jewish is that people have to argue based on facts, sources, and
convincing opinions rather than artificial titles.  Furthermore, I think
that it is important to be circumspect in langauge in any postings, as
if writing to a learned older individual ... this kind of respect serves
to promote the ahavat israel that m-j engenders.

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>

From: Caela Kaplowitz <caelak@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:22:59 -0400
Subject: RE: Administrative Idea

Yisrael Medad  wrote:
>Also, if I knew someone was older, maybe I'd be more circumspect in
>language, etc.

Having been flamed at on this site several times I've gone back to being
a "lurker" for the most part. May I suggest that we stop worrying about
whether someone is "older" and *always* be circumspect in what language
we use? I hate being called "stupid" in public. Don't you?

Caela Kaplowitz
Baltimore, MD


From: Aryeh Gielchinsky <agielchinsky@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:51:13 -0400
Subject: Competition

I believe in discussing the case of a writer losing business due to
blogs, someone suggested that Hasagas Givul should be applied. Hasagas
Givul seems to be a situation where the original vendor is losing due to
the gains of the new vendor. The case of the writer and the blogger,
while the writer is losing out, the blogger doesn't gain anything. A
better source may be the following: Tosfos (Baba Kama 20a "Zeh ayn
niheneh") says if Reuvien has a house that is fit to be rented out, and
Shimon has his own place to sleep, but sleeps in Revain's place, this is
a case of one guy not gaining and the other guy losing (Revain can't
rent out the house with Shimon in it, and Shimon didn't gain because he
could have slept at his own house) and Shimon does not have to pay
because he didn't gain anything, and because the damage he did was only
Grama (causative damage).

The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 363:6) quotes the Rif saying in
Tosfos's case Shimon is Chayiv. The Rama (with an aleph) says if shimon
had kicked Reuvain out of the house, locked the door, and "not" slept
there, he would be Pautur. On that case the Ramah (with a Hay) says
Shimon is still Chayiv.

The case of the writer and the blogger is probably more comparable to
the second case (the Rama says Shimon is Chayiv in the first case
because he used Reuvain's stuff) so according to everyone besides the
Ramah, I think the blogger would not have to compensate the writer.

Aryeh Gielchinsky
President of the Yeshiva University Physics and Engineering Club, retired


From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:32:00 +0200
Subject: Congratulations to another group of new olim

Hi Everyone!

Congratulations to the new olim who made aliyah this
week from the United States.

I posted pictures (a0401-a431) on my site at:

If you do not see July 29, 2005 on the top of the web page,
hold the control key and press the F5 key to refresh your browser.

For full page viewing press the F11 key while viewing the pictures.

May the aliyah from the USA (and the rest of the world) grow and 
bring more Jews back to their homeland, Eretz Yisrael.

Shabbat Shalom,


From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:41:58 +0200
Subject: New Israeli Educational Stamps Posted Online

Hi Everyone!

I scanned and posted on my website the new Israeli stamps that were
issued in July.  I included the stamp itself, the first day cover, and
an English and a Hebrew flyer about the stamp.

- 800 years since the death of Maimonides (RAMBAM)
- Pope John Paul II

- Maccabiah 2005

- Israeli Art - Moshe Castel, Arie Aroch, Moshe Kupferman

- Gagea Commutate (plant)

If you do not see July 29, 2005 on the stamps pages, 
hold your control key and press the F5 key to refresh your browser.

When viewing the English / Hebrew flyers, Windows XP / Explorer 6 will
reduce the large image if it does not fit on your screen. Place your
mouse over the picture for 2-3 seconds and a small box with 4 arrows
will appear.  Click on the small box and the larger image will appear.

Recommendation: F11 key to view full length of pictures 

Shabbat Shalom,


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:29:41 EDT
Subject: Reality really bites/How we teach our kids.

      If a college student could be as devastated as I was, I cannot
      imagine the damage done to an elementary school student by this
      kind of teacher abuse. Does it still go on?

I am not accusing the majority, but I do accuse the minority of the
chassidishe schools. These beatings and physical attacks on students by
teachers still goes on. Esp. in the Yehivot ketanot in Borough Park,
where boys regularly get their ears twisted, get hit with "the rod", and
a few years ago, in a certain highly respected, well-known yeshiva (not
Chaim Berlin or Mir), a teacher pushed a kid down the stairs and cracked
his skull for him. (I used to be very involved with these issues, and
dealt with pediatricians in BP who filled me in on all these stories,
plus I spoke to siblings and mothers of victims.)

When the women complained to the "educators" in the chassidishe
yeshivos, (my female cousins, the mothers of these boys told me this)
they were told that if they objected to the beatings, their kids would
be thrown out, and that the "educators" would make sure the kids
couldn't get into other yeshivos--and that tuitions would be raised.

In one school, the second grade teacher so beat a kid for not knowing
his place in chumash, that the kid's back was black and blue for a
month. I called the Rebbe whose name labeled the yeshiva, and told him
to get his act together or I would call the authorities. I could do that
because he, like most of them, was one of my cousins. Never mind what
they do with the pedophiles--they just pass them around from one school
to the next, until they get caught again.

I finally raised the issue with the guys at the Agudah a few years ago,
and Wolpin ran an article against beating students in the JO. Whether or
not that had an effect, only Hashem knows.



From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:14:44 -0400
Subject: The State of Jewish Education

>Carl A. Singer <casinger@...> V49 N23:
>> Today there are many Jewish schools that have Lemudi Kodesh teachers
>> who really know their stuff but have no formal training, licensing
>> or degrees (discounting watered down degrees from certain dubious
>> institutions) in how to teach it.  This model seems to work in colleges
>> and universities -- but is it really effective for your children?

> From what I've read, people don't learn how to teach in secular schools
> of education, either.  New public school teachers say that they learned
> what they know about teaching during their apprenticeship -- when they
> were thrown into the classroom unprepared (and perhaps assigned a senior
> teacher from whom to seek advice).

Even if the above assertion about secular school teachers was true -- it
doesn't address the situation in Jewish Schools -- it's like saying he
may be dumb, but so is his brother.

Go to any college school of education website and you'll see what a
comprehensive curriculum for teachers includes.  Add to that
certification requirements.  And finally apprenticeship is a very
positive thing.  A student teacher is placed into a classroom under the
supervision of a more senior teacher and monitored by faculty at their
university -- and yes, it's probably a shock.  "Unprepared" -- maybe
surprised by what goes on in some of today's schools.

Back to the subject at hand.  What teacher-oriented training and
apprenticeship is required of our Rebbes?  In many cases the answer is
none.  They don't know about curriculum design, classroom management,
different learning / teaching styles .... and the list goes on.  They go
directly from Kollel (learner) to classroom (teacher).

Carl Singer


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <Sabba.Hillel@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:52:48 -0400
Subject: Urgent plea for liver transplant

I have been asked to forward this plea for help to as many people as I 
know about.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore."
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ohr_simcha1 <ohr_simcha1@...>
Subject: [Ohr_simcha1] Urgent plea for liver transplant

Forwarding this from my good friend, Rabbi Eliezer Langer...

Shari Kurzrok, 31 years old and enagaged to be married, needs a liver
transplant. Her doctors at NYU Medical Center have indicated that her
liver has failed and completely shut down, leaving us only a matter of
days to save her life. Please forward this message to as many people you
know. If you can provide immediate assistance in locating a donor,
please contact (877) 223-3386 or <liverforalife@...>

Eliezer Langer
See the website at http://helpshari.typepad.com/


End of Volume 49 Issue 26