Volume 49 Number 70
                    Produced: Wed Aug 24  5:16:09 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chassidic Stories
         [Nathan Lamm]
Forceps Vaginal Delivery and PHB
         [Lisa Liel]
History of matrilineal transference
         [Tom Buchler]
Hot Water on Shabbat
         [Josh Backon]
Is this meat?  Is this kosher? (2)
         [Irwin Weiss, Martin Stern]
J/J ads
         [Nathan Lamm]
J/J campaign on Yahoo
         [Carl Singer]
Josephus vs. Sefer Yosefon
         [Robert Israel]
Learning on Tisha b'av
         [Lisa Liel]
         [Mr L Reich]
Mezuzah Question (2)
         [Joshua Hosseinof, Rachel Swirsky]
Minhag Hamakom
         [Nathan Lamm]
Minhag Hamokom
         [Martin Stern]
Napoleon and the first Lubavitcher Rebbe
Offensive ads, was J/J Campaign
         [Allen Gerstl]


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chassidic Stories

Joseph Ginzburg writes:
> There's at last one more. where the Cattle-herder cracks his whip
> loudly.

Theodore Bikel sings a Yiddish song telling of how different people
react to a great chazzan: The tailor says, "He davened like I sew with
my needle"; the blacksmith says, "He davened like I bang my hammer"; the
coachman bellows (you have to hear Bikel do it, and, of course, it
really only works in Yiddish), "Like I crack my whip- YO!- is how he

> If you believe all of the holy stories, you are a fool. But if you
> believe none of them, you are a heretic.

I think this lessens the point: We can all believe in some of
them. Perhaps it should be, "If you believe them [period], you're a
fool. If you don't, you're a heretic." That sets up a nice paradox to
get you thinking.


From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:14:18 -0400
Subject: Forceps Vaginal Delivery and PHB

From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Martin Stern wrote, in part:
>>matter of dispute if the forceps are inserted before the child 
>>leaves the womb proper (par. 13), some holding pidyon is required 
>>with a berakhah, some that the boy is completely exempt and some 
>>that pidyon
>I think he must be referring to the use of "high forceps" which to 
>my understanding does not exist in modern US obstetrics any longer.  
>Babies who formerly were delivered using high forceps are now 
>invariably C-sectioned.  (Please correct, OB's on list, if I am 
>wrong on this point.)

My cousin is my age, so he was born in 1963.  The story I've heard is,
they put his mother to sleep with ether, and pulled him out with
forceps.  So would that be the "high forceps" you're talking about?

He's the oldest in his family, and I know he had a pidyon ha-ben.
Should my uncle try and get his money back? <grin>

Seriously, though, I'm curious.


From: Tom Buchler <tbuchler@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:37:53 -0400
Subject: History of matrilineal transference

A local shul, unaffiliated, but nominally conservative is considering
calling someone a Jew whose father is Jewish. As I have friends there,
including board and ritual committee members, I'd love some discursive
armament, including the historical background of matrilineal
transference of Judaism, beyond a verse in Devarim. Some might be swayed
by cogent argument.



From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:40:20 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbat

Using water that was heated ON shabbat (even not through electricity but
even by mixing cold water with hot water that was heated BEFORE shabbat
but would be elevated by the pre-heated hot water to the temperature of
YAD SOLEDET (approx 113 degrees F) is prohibited.

Regarding a shower, washing one's entire body in hot water (even if
water was preheated before shabbat and no cold water gets warmed) is not
permitted (Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAYIM 326). With regard to showering
with cool water, it's not permitted unless one is suffering from a heat
wave (see: Iggrot Moshe OC IV 75; Shmirat Shabbat k'Hilchata Chapter

I remember when I was a medical officer in the army here (around 1976)
and we were on maneuvers in the desert. On Shabbat (no maneuvers) the
temperature was over 48 degrees Centigrade (118 degrees F) and I ordered
the men to shower, the desert air drying them off and thus lowering
their body temperature.

Josh Backon


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:29:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Is this meat?  Is this kosher?

If it starts with a meat tissue sample, as Immanuel Burton postulates,
then you have one set of problems.  If it doesn't, then, does it just
get bigger and look like a steak, or does it get bigger and look like a
cow?  If the former, and if it doesn't start with a meat tissue sample,
but just some chemicals, then what is the bracha?  Is it fleishig? If it
isn't fleishig, can you put it on your milchig plates? If it grows up
and looks like a cow, do you have to schecht it?


And, of course, does it pair with red wine or white?


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:00:38 +0100
Subject: Re: Is this meat?  Is this kosher?

on 23/8/05 12:23 pm, Immanuel Burton <iburton@...> wrote:
> If the tissue sample is taken from a living animal, wouldn't it be aiver
> min ha'chai - flesh from a living animal?  If so, then not only is it
> forbidden as food to Jews it is also forbidden for non-Jews under the
> Seven Noahide Laws.

Eiver min hachai is not 'flesh from a living animal', which is basar min
hachai. To qualify as an eiver it has to comprise flesh, bone and

Martin Stern 


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: J/J ads

Many Jewish blogs hosted by Google have had the issue of Messianic ads
being inserted automatically; Google has been accomodating in removing
them when asked.


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:12:51 -0400
Subject: J/J campaign on Yahoo

I just formed a new Yahoo Group solely for the purpose of distributing
email to my email list at my synagogue (list was too large to easily
work with outside a group setting) --

My mistake was identifying the group (during Yahoo setup) as religion,
etc. -- thus the Yahoo adv searh engine knew what ads to target.  With
hindsight I should have said my group dealt with bicycle riding, or
something like that.

Fortuanately, since my group is ONLY for my distributing email (no
discussions) once people have signed up they never again see the
website, itself, nor the unwanted J4J adds.

Carl Singer


From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:48:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Josephus vs. Sefer Yosefon

Aryeh Gielchinsky <agielchinsky@...> wrote:

| I was reading a copy of Josephus in a base medresh on Tisha Ba'av (which
| i thought was permitted based on the Misnah Brurah) when the shul Rabbi
| came over and told me i was not allowed to read it in a base medresh and
| the Mishna Brurah was actually referring to a different work known as
| Sefer Yosefon (which I had) then he opened up both and pointed out that
| they in fact had different authors. Are they really two different books
| or was there some kind of confusion? Also why does Artscroll quote
| Josephus and not Sefer Yosefon?

Yosefon is a history of the Second Temple period in Hebrew.  It claims
to be written by Flavius Josephus, but is generally thought to be from
the 9th or 10th century CE.  See e.g. the article on Joseph ben Gorion
in the online Jewish Encyclopedia

I can't comment on why your rabbi would allow Yosefon but not Josephus.
As for Artscroll: since Josephus himself was a participant in the revolt
against Rome, his works are a primary source for the history of that
era, while the material in Yosefon is taken from other sources (in
particular Josephus).

Robert Israel                                <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel 
University of British Columbia            Vancouver, BC, Canada


From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:19:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Learning on Tisha b'av

From: <RYehoshua@...>
>Secondly, the last line of Sotah needs an explanation: The last 
>Mishna of that Tractate states that the death of R" Yehudah Hanassi 
>marked the end of humilty (anivut).  Yet one amorah challenges that 
>remark by pointing out that as long as he is alive humility still 
>lives.  Has anyone come across a good pshat for this comment - 
>other than the one that would interpret this as a sarcastic comment.

I was taught that anava does not equate to the English "humility".  That
rather, it means having an accurate assessment of oneself.  That
unwarranted humility is actually a form of gaava.

Think of Moshe Rabbenu, after all.  The biggest anav ever, but not
exactly the picture of what we'd call "humble", the way that term is
normally used.



From: Mr L Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:20:52 +0100
Subject: Mefunak

My dictionaries are not sure about the derivation of "finical" &
"finicky" and suggest they may come from "fine".

Could there be a connection with the Hebrew "mefunak" ?

Elozor Reich 


From: Joshua Hosseinof <JHosseinof@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:14:42 -0400
Subject: re: Mezuzah Question

>My understanding (confirmed by my son-in-law when he asked a shailah
>before moving recently) was that a) there doesn't appear to be any
>reason why you shouldn't charge for the mezuzah's you leave behind and
>b) if your mezuzah's are particularly special (larger size/written for
>you personally/specially expensive etc) there is no reason why you
>shouldn't replace them with cheap (but kosher) mezuzah's before you

Agreed - Rav Ovadia Yosef has a teshuva explicitly permitting you to
take down your mezuzahs for the purpose of checking them and leaving in
place cheap (but kosher) mezuzah's.  And the Beit Yosef does indeed say
that the tenant who is leaving may require payment for the mezuzahs from
the tenant who is moving in.

>There is also a difference if you are renting a property and simply
>leaving that rental (no reason to leave your mezuzah's behind) or if
>you are selling the property, when these halochos do apply.

I think perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote.  My whole point was that
every single source which discusses the requirement to leave the
mezuzah's behind speaks only about a situation where you rent a house
and then leave (and a new jewish tenant will move in shortly).  In the
case of renters the gemara and shulchan aruch are explicit - you MUST
leave the mezuzah's behind.  But there is no source that discusses what
to do in the case of a sale of a home to another Jew, other than the two
sources that I outlined in my original post to mail-jewish, neither of
which gave any explanation for how they expanded the requirement to
include a sale of a home.

From: Rachel Swirsky <rachel@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:53:43 -0400
Subject: RE: Mezuzah Question

We were told that one need only leave the mezuzahs if unsure if the new
owners will require them or not.  If the new owners are not Jewish, no
need to leave them.  If they are Jewish, you should ascertain whether or
not they will be putting up their own.  If so, you may take yours.  If
not, you may charge them for them.



From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:14:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Minhag Hamakom

I think a part of the issue with Kedusha is that we automatically begin
what we're used to (and may not even know the other version), and by the
time you realize, it's too late, except for Keter, I suppose.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:23:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Minhag Hamokom

on 23/8/05 10:26 am, Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...> wrote:

>> I assume the shul minhag is eveyone does their own thing or else
>> shouldn't they all say the kaddish with the nusach hamakom as they do
>> for kedusha?
>> Joel Rich
> I may not understand your point.
> Individuals say the kedusha in their own nusach if they're davening at a
> minyan with a different nusach - AFAIK.

The Kedushah itself is the same in every nusach, only the connecting
phrases, which for us of German origin only the shats says in any case,
differ. However, AFAIK Joel is correct and Stuart is not and one should
not say anything audibly different from the local version under the
prohibition of "agudot agudot", having divergent practices in the same

> No one in my minyan(s) has any problem whatsoever with everyone saying
> the kaddish of their own nusach or tradition.

It would appear that these minyanim do not have their own nusach or
minhag else it would be highly incorrect to do so.

Martin Stern 


From: <Shuanoach@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:51:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Napoleon and the first Lubavitcher Rebbe

Sources on this can be found in: Napoleon u-Tekufato by Barukh Mevorakh.
The first Lubavitcher Rebbe is on pp. 181-183. Chassidic stories about
Napoleon by the Chozeh of Lublin, Naphtali of Ropshitz, Nahman of
Bratslav and others follow.

j. l.


From: Allen Gerstl <acgerstl@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:53:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Offensive ads, was J/J Campaign

I find a similar problem with the Google ads on (e.g.) the Jewish
Encyclopedia site.



End of Volume 49 Issue 70