Volume 49 Number 93
                    Produced: Wed Nov  9  6:12:05 EST 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chazarat Hashatz - unfamiliar custom (3)
         [Cheski Frank, Emmanuel Ifrah, <mrosenpsi@...>]
Delivery on Shabbat (2)
         [Meir Shinnar, Joseph Ginzberg]
Grammatical question
         [Israel Caspi]
Importance of shomer shabbat ketubah witnesses
         [Martin Stern]
Jewish schools and vouchers
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [Russell J Hendel]
Mode of Dress and Tefilah
         [Frank Silbermann]
Public Schools and "dejudaizing" Jewish Children
         [Batya Medad]
Reasons for Denying Aliyos
         [Baruch C. Cohen]
See my shiny new bicycle (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman, Ari Trachtenberg]


From: <cheski@...> (Cheski Frank)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:12:20 +0100
Subject: RE: Chazarat Hashatz - unfamiliar custom

Starting again from Shemy Koleinu is also practised in my hometown,
Amsterdam (Holland). Would love to know what the mekor for that is!

Kol tuv,
Cheski Frank

From: Emmanuel Ifrah <emmanuel_ifrah@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:31:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Chazarat Hashatz - unfamiliar custom

Fortunately enough, what is totally unfamiliar to some is very familiar
to others!

What Shmuel Himelstein witnessed is a common minhag among North African
communities, especially Moroccan ones. Once again, these are not "edot
ha-Mizrach" but on the contrary "edot ha-Ma'arav" (Maghreb), despite
some major contemporary poskim who try to impose minhagey edot
ha-Mizrach to all Sefaradim...

As to the point, Shmuel Himelstein wrote:

> When we were in Paris recently, I was davened in an Eidot Mizrach Shul
> in the 15th (I believe) District. On Friday afternoon they Davened
> Minchah about 75 minutes before candlelighting time.  They
> nevertheless started with a Hoiche Kedushah, i.e., where after the
> first Kaddish the Chazan immediately started saying the Amidah aloud
> up to the end of Kedushah. Up to that time, there was nothing untoward
> in the davening from my point of view (although I was somewhat
> surprised that with so much time to candlelighting they nevertheless
> used a Hoiche Kedushah).  What surprised me, though - and this I'd
> never seen - is that the Chazan again started aloud from (I believe)
> Shma Koleinu until the end of Chazarat Hashatz (maybe because of Modim
> d'Rabbanan?).  Does anyone have any information on this custom?

In fact, this custom is an extension of the Rambam's takana not to say
chazarat ha-shatz for mussaf on shabbat. In that case the shatz says
aloud the 3 first berachot, allowing the kahal to say kedusha and
resumes his reading aloud at retseh.  In most Morrocan communities the
same is/was done for mincha on weekdays in order to shorten the davening
(often tachanunim are/were skipped also).  It is sometimes done also at
shacharit on weekdays for the same reason (on rosh chodesh for example).
The validity of these minhagim is brought in a number of books. However,
as most Sefaradic ba'aley teshuva now rely on Rav Ovadia Yossef, a lot
of these original minhagim often dating from the times of the Rishonim
are being crushed by the Yalkut Yosef bulldozer.

From: <mrosenpsi@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:49:49 -0500
Subject: Re:  Chazarat Hashatz - unfamiliar custom

I know that this is the prevalent custom for the Spanish Portoguese
Synagogue in NY.  I know that they follow the custom of the S&P in
Amsterdam. I believe that many Sephardic (not Eidot Mizrach) communities
do this. I do not believe that the Iraquis and Syrians do this as a
matter of course.


From: Meir Shinnar <Meir.Shinnar@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: RE: Delivery on Shabbat

WRT to delivery on shabbat, and driving to the hospital, when living in
Boston (about 25 years ago), I heard in the name of RYB Soloveichik (not
directly, but from a talmid) the following:

For labor, one allows any melacha that will calm the woman (rather than
the criteria being related directly to pikuach nefesh - reason why is a
different discussion).  Therefore, if the woman tells the
husband(driver) that she is worried about the car being left on/not
parked, the husband is allowed to park/turn the car off.  Furthermore,
couples were so advised - so that the wife would be sure to tell her
husband of her concerns.

Meir Shinnar

From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:57:36 -0500
Subject: Delivery on Shabbat

I have no halachic advice for you, but I can offer a personal cautionary
tale of being "too frum".

My firstborn was born in Jerusalem, many years ago, when I was still
much more idealistic and yeshiva-like.  On Friday before Shabbat I
prepared the phone numbers of Arab cab companies and put money in the
lobby mailbox for them to take themselves, lest labor start on Shabbat.

Of course, it did. Calling the non-Jewish companies late on a Friday
night got me several drunk and otherwise uncooperative dispatchers,
leading to 5 calls instead of one.

When the cab was finally there and I had manuevered my laboring wife
down several flights (there was no elevator, not frumkeit!), I opened
the car door for her to enter.

I was so shocked at having the interior lights go on in response to my
opening that I re-shut the door at once!

Net result: trying to be too frum led to much extra chilul Shabbat.

I did feel better, though, when while waiting in the hospital I saw a
woman wheeled in from an ambulance, and her husband, panting and
perilously close to heart failure, came running after. At least I wasn't
the biggest fool in Jerusalem that night!

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Israel Caspi <icaspi@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0500
Subject: Grammatical question

I am confused about the punctuation of the Kak/Chaf in the words
Birkat/Birchat Ha-mazon.  If the former, why do we say "Birchot
Ha-shachar" and not "Birkot Ha-shachar"?

--I. Caspi


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:42:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Importance of shomer shabbat ketubah witnesses

on 8/11/05 11:07 am, Stephen Phillips <admin@...> wrote in
reply to R Nudleman <sixcorners@...>:

>> I am doing research for a colleague of mine who is becoming more
>> observant and is planning his wedding (several months away).  He wants
>> to have a halakhic marriage ceremony, but his fiancee is not so happy
>> about the idea that two shomer shabbat men are required sign the
>> ketubah, since she has some non-observant Jewish friends that she wants
>> to have sign it.  He has asked me what the implications would be for his
>> marriage if the signers of his ketubah were not shomer shabbat...is the
>> kedushin considered valid at all?  Is the marriage considered invalid?
> I think it is clear from the various Teshuvos in Igros Moshe on the
> subject of Reform weddings that lack of Kosher witnesses renders the
> Kiddushin invalid.
> As a piece of advice, what we did was to get the relevant [invalid]
> relatives who wanted to be witnesses to sign the civil marriage
> register.

While Stephen is quite correct that non-kosher witnesses would
invalidate the kiddushin, this was not quite what R Nudleman was
asking. Only the witnesses to the the actual handing over of the ring,
and the yichud, affect its validity, not those signing the ketubah.
While a couple are not permitted to live together without a ketubah,
they can still be legally married nonetheless. In the Talmudic era, the
kiddushin, which effected a marital bond, took place up to a year before
the nissuin, when the couple began to live together, for which the
ketubah was required.

While doubts regarding the possible disqualification of the signatories
should be avoided, the rav might take the view that detailed
investigation may not be necessary, based on the principle that "hakol
becheskat kashrut - everyone is presumed to be a valid witness in the
absence of any known disqualification" in what is essentially a
derabbanan, unlike the witnesses to the kiddushin itself which is
de'oraita. Thus two non-observant Jewish males would be preferable even
to two observant Jewish women, since the latter are quite obviously not
valid witnesses.

Stephen's suggestion of restricting such persons to signing the civil
marriage register is excellent and, in fact, many consider that one
should only use such pasul witnesses to emphasise that it has no
halachic significance. We also followed this procedure at several of our
daughters' weddings.

Martin Stern


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:55:02 EST
Subject: Jewish schools and vouchers

Does anyone have a list of all Jewish schools in America that receive
state or local voucher money?

Chaim Shapiro


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 23:24:58 -0500
Subject: RE: Marriage

Michael (v49#91) states the following about a couple "discussing" whether
witnesses should be kosher
>>If this type of dispute is occurring before the wedding, how much more
>>will they fight over aftewords.  Hashkafic intermarriage may be
>>halachically allowed, but it can be as much a practical disaster as a
>>"real" intermarriage.

I am NOT disputing Michael's concern. However I do want to point out the
"other side." That is: If they are at least DISCUSSING IT then there is
room to believe that the marriage (and spiritual growth) will work out.

Let us be realistic: Husbands and wives DISCUSS "which way to follow"
all the time. I think a marriage is more in danger when these issues are
not discussed.

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 06:36:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject:  Mode of Dress and Tefilah

We are told that we should dress for prayer the same way we would dress
if we were meeting a very powerful or important person, e.g. the
President of the United States.

If I in a job that required me to frequently consult with the President,
I would wear a suit and tie to work.  So, perhaps that's how
congregational rabbis should dress.

If I, an ordinary private citizen, were taking off from work to go see
the President (e.g. to receive an award), I would wear a suit and tie.
So, perhaps I should dress up when davening on a day when I must take
off from work (i.e.  Shabbas or Yom Tov).

If I, an ordinary working man, see the President on a day when I go to
work, it is probably because the President has come to me to campaign
for election or to show support for the work we are doing (e.g. visiting
soldiers in the field, or rescue workers at a natural disaster), in
which case I would be wearing my work clothes.  I conclude that when
davening on work days I should wear whatever kind of clothes I normally
work in.

For me, that's quite casual.

Frank Silbermann	Memphis, TN (formerly New Orleans, LA)


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:37:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Public Schools and "dejudaizing" Jewish Children

>         According to Americans United for Separation of Church and
> State, public schools delivered "a kind of nondenominational
> Protestantism.  Classes began with devotional readings from the King
> James Version of the Bible and recitation of the Protestant version of
> the Lord's Prayer.  Students were expected to take part whether they
> shared those religious sentiments or not."  (We all recall how Jewish
> children were expected to sing Christmas carols and take part in
> Christmas plays.)  This had a long and militant history.  In the
> 1840's,

Very true.  When I was growing up and went to NYC schools, there was
Bible reading in assemblies.  They had a list of "appropriate verses,"
nothing that sounded Christian in my school in Bayside, NY, very Jewish
in those days.  And then when we moved to Great Neck, which had lots of
Protestants in the public schools, I had a teacher who complained how
"the Jews ruined it all when they came to Great Neck."  When asked for
details, she told us that the Jews, who began moving in numbers after
WWII, stopped the xmas religious assemblies.



From: <Azqbng@...> (Baruch C. Cohen)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:32:59 EST
Subject: Re: Reasons for Denying Aliyos

      From: Alan Krinsky <adkrinsky@...>

      Does anyone know about halakhic grounds for denying aliyot to men
      and/or the actual practice in Orthodox shuls today?

Regarding the issue of "Reasons for Denying Aliyot" it is my experience,
that a Mesarev Ledin - someone who refuses to respond to three Hazmanos
issued by a Bais Din to appear before a Bais Din case, which results in
the Bais Din issuing a Shtar Siruv against him -responsible Torah
communities have been known to deny the Mesarev (the contemnor) aliyos
in shul.

Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
e-mail: <azqbng@...>


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:43:51 EST
Subject: Re: See my shiny new bicycle

      I don't know anyone that would agree with anyone "who publicly
      scolded" anyone. What are we coming to? Do we need to offer
      classes in menschlichkeit?

The answer to that loaded question is that >YES< we DO have to offer
classes in menschlichkeit, because there is very little left in the
Jewish community at large.


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:16:26 -0500
Subject: Re: See my shiny new bicycle

> I don't know anyone that would agree with anyone "who publicly scolded"
> anyone. What are we coming to? Do we need to offer classes in
> menschlichkeit?

A fantastic idea ... but who would teach them?

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


End of Volume 49 Issue 93