Volume 50 Number 37
                    Produced: Fri Dec  2  4:59:36 EST 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Avinu Shebashamayim
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Cooking food on Shabbat - "Shabbat Jew" (3)
         [Nathan Lamm, Martin Stern, Jonathan Sperling]
Davening with a minyan (2)
         [Gershon Dubin, Michael]
Establishment of Fences
         [Joel Rich]
Going to shul with a cold or flu (2)
         [Andy Goldfinger, Stuart Pilichowski]
Ketubat non-betulah
         [Abraham & Shulamith Lebowitz]
Rabbi's needing other jobs
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
Skipping Tachanun
         [Nathan Lamm]
Tahanun and aversion
         [Bernard Raab]


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:47:49 +0200
Subject: Avinu Shebashamayim

Actually, this phrase is much older than some of the posters have

Anyone familiar with the Christian "Lord's Prayer?" It starts: "Our
Father who art in heaven." See Luke 11:2 ff. for the actual text of that

And of course Luke picked it up from earlier sources, as the three times
the phrase appears in the Mishnah, thereafter in both the Yerushalmi and
Bavli, and in many Midrashim ...

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:21:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cooking food on Shabbat - "Shabbat Jew"

Ari Trachtenberg wonders about the halakha that allows us to eat
something cooked by a Jew on Shabbat.

This is clearly a b'dieved situation. We can hardly ask or expect
another Jew to cook for us on Shabbat.  It raises issues of lifnei iver,
for one.

Nachum Lamm

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:23:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Cooking food on Shabbat - "Shabbat Jew"

on 30/11/05 11:09 am, Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> wrote:
> From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
>> It should be okay for a non-Jewish worker to cook an entire meal in a
>> kosher kitchen, but we're afraid it will lead to intermarriage unless
>> the Jew participates in the cooking.
> Interestingly enough, the straightforward reading of the mishna brura
> (sorry, I don't have the source offhand, but it's well known) is that
> the Shabbat cooking of a *Jew* is permitted to every one but that Jew.
> Would there thus be a halachic objection (certainly there would be a
> social and moral objection) to having a non-observant "shabbat Jew"
> cooking for you on Shabbat?

Here are two problems with the above:

1. If even amirah lenochri (telling a non-Jew to do a melachah for
oneself on Shabbat) is rabbinically prohibited, how would Ari get his
non-observant "shabbat Jew" to do anything for him?

2. According to many opinions a non-shabbat-observant Jew has the status
of a non-Jew as far as bishul akum (food cooked by a non-Jew) is
concerned, so how could Ari eat what he has prepared?

Martin Stern

From: Jonathan Sperling <jsperling@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 01:07:14 -0500
Subject: Cooking food on Shabbat - "Shabbat Jew"

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
>From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
>> It should be okay for a non-Jewish worker to cook an entire meal in a
>> kosher kitchen, but we're afraid it will lead to intermarriage unless
>> the Jew participates in the cooking.
>Interestingly enough, the straightforward reading of the mishna brura
>(sorry, I don't have the source offhand, but it's well known) is that the
>Shabbat cooking of a *Jew* is permitted to every one but that Jew. Would
>there thus be a halachic objection (certainly there would be a social and
>moral objection) to having a non-observant "shabbat Jew" cooking for you
>on Shabbat?

When it comes to the permissibility of eating food cooked on shabbat,
the only differentiation between the Jew who cooks and other Jews is in
the case of cooking intentionally (b'meizid), where the Jew who cooks is
forbidden ever to eat the food, while other Jews are permitted to eat
that food only after Shabbat. (This is a differentiation made by the
Mechaber, with which the Mishna Berurra does not disagree.  See Shulchan
Aruch Orach Chaim 318:1 and Mishna Berura seifim katan 5 and 7).  Once
one knows what this "well known" Mishna Berura actually says, the
question you are posing is whether there is a halachic objection to a
Jew intentionally performing chillul shabbos d'oraisa.  The question
seems to answer itself, and to be a poor analogy to Akiva Miller's
description of an activity that the Torah permits but that Chazal chose
to enjoin based on social considerations.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:04:25 GMT
Subject: Davening with a minyan

From: Asher Grossman <asherg@...>

>(On the last count, I have to relate what I saw in a famous Brooklyn
>"Minyan Factory". Next to the Amud hangs a note, with a precise schedule
>for the Chazan: at X:30 - Brachot, X:38 - Rabi Yishmael, X:39 - Hodu,
>and so on until, with 5 minutes given to saying from Ashrei till the end
>of davening, Davening concludes at 8 minutes after the hour - 38 minutes
>for Shachrit!)

I was going to write that I attend that particular shul on a regular
basis, but I've seen those signs everywhere from Brooklyn to Bet
Shemesh.  Clearly there's a need, theoretical considerations (and
remarks about how Americans are always in a rush) notwithstanding, to be
able to predict how long davening will take, **within reason**.

Those times are generally accepted to be minimums.  You cannot allot l e
s s than 8 minutes for korbonos, the same for pesukei dezimra, etc.
Someone who davens for the amud and takes a minute or two m o r e for
each part will not be criticized by anyone and will be praised by a
significant number.

When I was an avel I routinely took approximately 45 minutes on
Sunday/Tuesday/Wednesday/Friday and 55-60 minutes on Monday and
Thursday.  I got no flak and a fair amount of approving comments.

AFAIK nobody went to another minyan (there are shacharis minyanim there
every half hour from 5:30, dawn permitting, to 11:00 AM, so nobody was
locked in even if he didn't want to go to another of several dozen
minyanim in the neighborhood.

For the record, the times for all areas of davening are, IMHO, fairly
reasonable with the exception of birchos kerias shema and after chazaras
hashatz through the end.  I've been promised that those are being
revised upward, so the feelings of horror that you express are not
supported by the situation on the ground.


From: Michael <mordechai@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:56:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Davening with a minyan

>38 minutes >for Shachrit!)

38 minutes, what a slow minyan.  I can't imagine a Shacharit outside of
yeshiva that goes longer than 35 minutes.

If you are unemployed you can spend all the time you want davening.  I
guess rich people who control their own work schedule can do so to.  But
their are people out their for who'm davening at all, let alone with a
minyan is extreme difficulty that should be aplauded even if it is done
too quickly for the Kollel crowd.

I've had times where neitz is at 6:15 and my job started at 7 AM.  Not
time for a drawn out Shacharit. Instead I was racing out of minyan early
first thing in the morning.  Mincha has gotten rushed at the office,
because my Jewish boss hated seeing me do it, even on my own break time.
While I have no children, I've know I have quite a few friends who race
out of morning services to go home, help get the kids to yeshiva and
then to a job to pay for the yeshiva (and all the shnorers who sneer at
working, but love the tzedaka that people with jobs can pay.)

If you can spend tons of time davening good for you.  But their is no
right to insult and degrade those who don't have the time and need a
quicker one. Halacha recognizes this which is why we have halachot
discussing tircha b tzibur.


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:01:07 -0500
Subject: RE: Establishment of Fences

> So I get this nagging question that I think bothers lots of God fearing
> people. Aren't I mature enough not to need the fences the Rabbis have put
> on in (too?) many instances?
> Can't you trust me not to carry my arba minim in public on shabbat? Or
> not to re-string my guitar on shabbat? In Israel I see lotsa kids riding
> their bikes on shabbat ....... when I grew up in Brooklyn 40 years ago we
> did also...... then it became ossur....

All according to the time/place/view of the decisor.  Who said life was
Joel Rich


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:11:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Going to shul with a cold or flu

In some Asian countries (for example: Japan, China), it is common for
people with a cold or cough to wear masks in public.  Given the
potential sakana (danger) of new influenza strains, perhaps this is
something we should do also, at least in shul.

-- Andy Goldfinger

From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:37:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Going to shul with a cold or flu

If you're sick I state emphatically (and I'm the present Gadol Hador on
my laptop) you are prohibitted from going to shul. Period. No
excuses. No mechila permitted either. You're likely to get an old geezer
who lives to go to shul in his golden years sick and then what?

I've been in situation in small towns, in the winter, when it was
difficult getting a minyan. I made phone calls, the Rabbi called, we
drove and picked up people. It's possible. Anything and everything is
possible if you try hard enough.

Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel


From: <aileb@...> (Abraham & Shulamith Lebowitz)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:11:17 +0200
Subject: Ketubat non-betulah

Approximately 50 years ago I saw a ketubah from Salonika in the Hebraic
collections of the Library of Congress.  In it the bride was described
as "habetulah shemimenu nit'abrah" (the virgin who was pregnant by him).
At the time I saw it it was not cataloged but in a box of loose

Abraham & Shulamith Lebowitz (Jerusalem)         


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:27:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Rabbi's needing other jobs

From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
> I strongly disagree.  Everyone wants a full-time Rabbi at a part-time
> salary.  "You'll ownly have to be available 2 hours per night for
> shailehs" -- "Shabbos and Yom Tov, of course, but the rest of the week
> you're 'free' to pursue other income."

Not at all ... we expect our Rabbis to take care of the community in the
same way as we take care of our children.  Does anyone pay you to wake
up at 2am to comfort your child, change his dirty diapers, help her with
her homework?  To the contrary, you go to work so that you can spend
huge amounts of money and time on you childrens' upkeep, education, etc.
 ... and you do it *not* because of any reward they can give you!

> Imagine if we told college professors (or fill in your own profession)
> -- you know, you can take a part time job as a computer programmer in
> order to feed your family and pay your rent -- and still be a college
> professor, they'll be plenty of free time for you ....

At some level we do say this by paying (relatively) very low salaries to
college professors (especially in the humanities) (and, parenthetically,
the work of professors is much less important than the work of (good)

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:19:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Skipping Tachanun

Martin Stern states that he "cannot understand this aversion to
tachanun." The answer is quite simple: Not all of us are on the level of
kedusha needed to appreciate every one of our tefillos- if we were, we
would likely not need a set text of a siddur. More to the point, most of
us do not have unlimited time in the mornings to spend on
tefillah. Tachanun is a prayer, quite long twice a week, which we can
occasionally dispense with under full sanction and even encouragement
(else we'd find reasons to say it) of the halakha. And almost every
time, to make things better, it's on a happy occasion!

This is human nature. Angels don't have to say tachanun; we do. They
don't get the benefits of a merciful God; we do. They wouldn't mind
saying it every day; we do. Let's celebrate that we are not them!

Nachum Lamm


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 00:08:32 -0500
Subject: Tahanun and aversion

>From: Martin Stern :
>I cannot understand this aversion to tachanun. Surely the first sentence
>of its concluding paragraph "And as for us, we do not know what to do
>because our eyes are to You" is the most sublime acceptance that, in the
>end, it is not our efforts that really count but, rather, HKBH's care
>for us and it is in it that we trust.

I think Martin has actually revealed the reason for the "aversion" . If
tachanun consisted of the concluding paragraph only, there would be a
chance that it would be recited with great devotion and kavanah. Who can
deny the beauty and power of this entire module of prayer? But to recite
it with the serious contemplation it deserves would require at least
10-to-15 minutes on Mondays and Thursdays, rather than the 1-to-2
minutes usually assigned to it.  Coming at a weekday shacharit when all
are hurrying to get to work or school, anyone who decides to actually
contemplate the full text will have to turn out the lights and lock the

b'shalom--Bernie R.


End of Volume 50 Issue 37