Volume 50 Number 46
Produced: Wed Dec 7 5:05:24 EST 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chatan/Minyan
[Nathan Lamm]
Correction - Dor R'viie / Sh'viie
[Mechy Frankel]
Hebrew "origins" of English words (2)
[Martin Stern, Meir]
Neits vs. Haneits (2)
[Martin Stern, Mark Steiner]
Obligation in Minyan
[Martin Stern]
Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs (3)
[Joel Rich, Ari Trachtenberg, Lisa Liel]
That's really the Friday night half-kaddish (3)
[Art Werschulz, Mark Symons, Stuart Feldhamer]
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 06:03:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Chatan/Minyan
Aliza Berger-Cooper quoting another:
> "...he said that I should start my married life with minyan, not with
> sleeping in and davening be-yichidus. He said that the morning after
> the wedding I should be at minyan, and after minyan thereafter."
A story is told about a talmid who came to Rav Soloveitchik's shiur the
day after he was married. The Rav told him, "The Torah says to be
mesameach with your wife for seven days; you can do it for at least one"
and sent him home.
I'm fairly certain that I once heard that halacha has something to say
about this- about certain halachot not applying to a new couple. Does
anyone know more?
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From: Mechy Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:55:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Correction - Dor R'viie / Sh'viie
oops.
in my recent note (v.50 #42) addressed to the subject line, i
inadvertently referred to the Dor Sh'viie. A slip of the metaphorical
pen. that should of course have been the Dor R'viie who exppressed his
halakhic opinion re geirus of a non-observing spouse. The Dor Sh'viie
is his distinguished great grandson, who apprised me of my slip
Mechy Frankel W (703) 416-3252
<michael.frankel@...> H: (301) 593-3949
<michaeljfrankel@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:29:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Hebrew "origins" of English words
on 6/12/05 10:02 am, Mark Steiner <marksa@...> wrote:
> An interesting coincidence is the pair: bur in Mishnaic Hebrew, and
> boor in English, which seem to mean exactly the same thing, yet the
> linguists seem to deny a Hebrew influence, and derive boor from Boer
which is the Dutch equivalent of the German Bauer meaning a peasant
i.e. am ha'arets in its original meaning in Mishnaic (as opposed to
Biblical) Hebrew.
Martin Stern
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From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:29:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Hebrew "origins" of English words
At 06:32 AM 11/18/05, Ben Katz wrote:
>My brother likes to point out that the words immediate and
>miyad (or miyadit) mean pretty much the same thing and sound quite
>alike, yet appear to have 2 completely different derivations:
This reminds me of another pair, bocho and boohoo. The English
dictionary says that boohoo is imitative of the sound of crying, and
gives no other etymology. But is it really imitative? I've never
used a "b" when I cry. And every language has a different word for
a dog's bark or a cat's meow. Seems likely to me that boohoo comes
from Hebrew. Is it imitative in Hebrew, or where does bocho come
from? Is this word an entry in _The Word_?
Meir
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:51:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Neits vs. Haneits
> I always assumed that sunrise is referred to a the naitz for the same
> reason it is also referred to as z'richah. Both terms refer to
> spreading or shooting out as do the sun's rays at sunrise. Probably
> the tail feathers or the like of the naitz bird resembles that as well
> ergo the Egyptian idol. But the word naitz haChamah remains
> unscathed.
The Mishnah, e.g. Ta'anit 3.9, refers to haneits hachammah meaning
rising of the sun. If haneits did mean 'the neits' this would be
incorrect grammatically since nouns in the construct form cannot have a
definite article.
Martin Stern
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From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:05:14 +0200
Subject: RE: Neits vs. Haneits
The over 700 attestations of "henetz hahamah" in rabbinic literature
should be compared to the slightly over 100 for "netz hahamah." There
are no attestations for the latter in tannaitic or amoraic literature.
Almost none of the latter in the rishonim. We conclude that the
"proper" expression is the former.
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:23:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Obligation in Minyan
on 6/12/05 10:27 am, Aliza Berger <alizadov@...> wrote:
> Aliza here again - I understand the sentiment and confess that I
> personally also have more kavanah in a group setting. But not everyone
> does. For example, my husband says he has more kavanah at home, because
> the minyan goes too fast. I may be carping -- and I recognize that Arie
> admitted he is being selfish -- but I would still like to point out that
> it could be argued that according to this viewpoint, apparently wives
> are expected to be able to have appropriate kavanah at home, and their
> husbands do not even give them the option of going to minyan and thus
> having more kavanah (except perhaps on shabbat morning). The husbands
> feel they have done their duty by both attending to the family and
> attending minyan. It would not occur to them to stay at home and have
> the wife go to minyan instead. (If any people on the list do actually do
> this, please write in about it.) This could be described as a double
> standard. I also suspect (can anyone confirm or disconfirm?) that many
> women don't bring up the issue with their husbands even though it
> bothers them.
Aliza seems not to understand that the need to daven with a minyan,
whether it is an obligation (chayav adam) or merely a halachically
desirable thing to do (yishtadel adam) - as in the current discussion in
mail-jewish - applies only to men and not women and has nothing to do
with having more kavannah. Any woman who considers that her husband
should daven at home so that she daven with a minyan has her whole scale
of priorities seriously disordered. Of course, if he can daven with a
minyan, there is no objection to her davenning with another one, either
earlier or later, if that is feasible.
Martin Stern
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:41:02 -0500
Subject: RE: Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs
> In thinking things through, it occurred to me that there seems to be a
> difference between scientific reality and Halachic reality.
> [snip]
> just as most of us eat meat from cattle that have not been examined
> for all 18 possible treifos (relying on the talmudic chazakah),
> R. Heinemann allows us to rely on chazakah in eating lettuce.
If you really believe this, why don't we check animals for all possible
treifot rather than just the common(lungs); why allow bitul brov......
Perhaps because Halachik reality is reality?
Kt
Joel Rich
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From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:03:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs
From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
> Halachic reality is different from scientific reality.
I saw a beautiful example of this at the MIT kosher kitchen when I was a
student. A student complained to the Mashgicha [kashrut supervisor]
that his meat was bloody, implying it not to be kosher because blood is
not kosher. She replied that, since the meat was properly soaked and
salted, what the student was seeing was not halachically blood.
Ari Trachtenberg, Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten mailto:<trachten@...>
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From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:13:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs
From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
> The controversy seems to stem from their position, as decided by
> the Star-K posek R. Moshe Heinemann, to rely upon the halachic
> principle of chazakah (not sure how to translate this into
> English).
Legal presumption.
Lisa
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From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:29:32 -0500
Subject: That's really the Friday night half-kaddish
Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>:
> I suspect (and I'll bet Art suspects this too, which is probably why
> he asked) that she means the second one,
We'll have to let the OP verify this. However, she has told me that her
computer refuses to open links to music files, so I'm not sure how to
procede. However, your description of the second tune as being the
Friday night hatzi qaddish tune might help her.
> but, as expert baalei tefillah will probably attest, this melody for
> the half-kaddish properly belongs to maariv on Friday night, preceding
> the amida, not to Shabbat morning at all. It has been pointed out to
> me that this kaddish has only recently begun to be sung on Shabbat
> morning, either after the leyning or before musaf, or both (!), but
> only in North America--and even there, not in shuls where the tzibbur
> is particular about nusah.
Jacobson gives the "Friday-night tune" (for lack of a better
description) for the hatzi qaddish that precedes the maftir on Shabbat.
For this qaddish, he gives other tunes for shalosh regalim and for yamim
noraim.
Does anybody have a pointer to a different tune for said qaddish on
Shabbat morning, i.e., one that is *not* the Friday night tune?
> To the best of my knowledge, only the first of the two links above
> leads to the authentic pre-musaf kaddish.
This is the nusah that I was taught, and the one I use when I'm the
ba'al mussaf.
> Comments from any other nusah freaks out there?
See above (and below).
> I'd be really happy if the same website (Virtual Cantor) had a
> rendition of the pre-amida kaddish for maariv on yomtov (3 regalim),
> but alas, this seems to be unknown to the cantor who developed this
> often very helpful site.
ISTR that he says that his site is a work-in-progress. Maybe he'll add
more later. When I was prepping for YK minha, I *really* would've liked
to have heard a recording of the hatzi qaddish (even though I have sheet
music for same).
One comment: I am not a hazzan, although I probably qualify as a nusah
freak. This means that there are most likely certain lacunae in my
education.
Having said this, there are some things on the virtualcantor.com site
that don't match what I've been taught. As I mention below, this is
*not* a denigration of the virtualcantor site!!!
For example, take Shabbat minha.
<music_geek_stuff>
The virtualcantor site's "Shabbat minha tune" is
D G G G G E D C
Ash rei yosh vei vei te e cha
I'm familiar with this particular tune. However, I prefer to use a slight
variant of same. For the phrase above, this tune starts on the tonic
("ashrei yosh'vei vei") and then shoots up a fifth to the dominant and
slides down one note at a time for "te-e-e-e-cha", ending up on the dominant
(it's something like a s-l-o-w arpeggio). But the rest of the phrase ("od
y'hallelucha selah") is the same in both versions.
</music_geek_stuff>
Note that virtualcantor uses the Shabbat minha tune throughout. OTOH,
at least two sources (one being Hazzan Sherwood Goffin IIRC, the other
being several hazzanim who have graduated from JTS) give the following
nusah:
(1) Ashrei through va'ani tefilati: the Shabbat minha tune.
(2) Torah reading (through hatzi qaddish): weekday tune.
(3) Hazarat ha-shatz: weekday tune through "yimloch", then change over to
the Shabbat minha tune.
(4) Remainder of the service: weekday tune.
Ditto with minha for the hagim (with the obvious omissions for a weekday).
(Side note for any nusah freaks out there: How do *you* do minha on
Shabbat or hag?)
What's the point of all this? There are various minhagim out there. I
would hesitate to call a community's establish minhag "wrong". (Well,
at least up to a point. I would find it somewhat jarring if somebody
were to do the weekday qedusha to the tune of "Kol Nidrei".:-)
Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7060, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325
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From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:09:17 +1100
Subject: That's really the Friday night half-kaddish
From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
...as expert baalei tefillah will probably attest, this melody for
the half-kaddish properly belongs to maariv on Friday night,
preceding the amida, not to Shabbat morning at all. It has been
pointed out to me that this kaddish has only recently begun to be
sung on Shabbat morning, either after the leyning or before musaf,
or both (!), but only in North America--and even there, not in
shuls where the tzibbur is particular about nusah.
I have heard that it is a tradition at least in British (?United
Synagogue in particular) Synagogues that the melody for kaddish after
leining is the same one as for the night before, whether it be Shabbat,
Shalosh Regalim or Yamim Noraim. I have only heard it for Shabbat. It is
the practice in several shules in Melbourne. Does anyone know more about
this?
Mark Symons
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From: Stuart Feldhamer <Stuart.Feldhamer@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:18:16 -0500
Subject: RE: That's really the Friday night half-kaddish
> I suspect (and I'll bet Art suspects this too, which is probably why he
> asked) that she means the second one, but, as expert baalei tefillah
> will probably attest, this melody for the half-kaddish properly belongs
> to maariv on Friday night, preceding the amida, not to Shabbat morning
> at all. It has been pointed out to me that this kaddish has only
> recently begun to be sung on Shabbat morning, either after the leyning
> or before musaf, or both (!), but only in North America--and even there,
> not in shuls where the tzibbur is particular about nusah. To the best of
> my knowledge, only the first of the two links above leads to the
> authentic pre-musaf kaddish.
I agree with half of this post. To me, the first link is the nusach for
the pre-Musaf Kaddish, while the second link is the nusach for the
Kaddish that the Baal Korei says toward the end of the leining. I don't
think either is the nusach for Kaddish on Friday night.
Stuart
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End of Volume 50 Issue 46
