Volume 50 Number 54
Produced: Wed Dec 14 5:31:27 EST 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Syllabus Construction Was RASHBAM (3)
[Sam Gamoran, I. Balbin, Avi Feldblum]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sam Gamoran <SGamoran@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:19:35 +0200
Subject: RE: Syllabus Construction Was RASHBAM
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
> Rashi motivates me to study chazal; Rashbam doesnt! I dont see a way
> out of this. I therefore dont want Rashbam on my chumashim because it
> would demotivate me.
I think there is a tremendous difference between "I choose to ignore
(not read) Rashbam" and "therefore Rashbam should not appear in my
chumashim."
The former is a personal choice that everyone has the right to make.
About the only mandated readings that I can think of are: daily prayer,
"shtayim mikra v'echad targum" (reading the weekly Torah reading twice
and the Targum Onkelos once), and the annual reading of Zachor.
On the other hand in general I am against imposing censorship on others.
Banning the Rashbam prevents one from drawing their own conclusions and
such censorship is (IMHO) inappropriate.
Sam Gamoran
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: I. Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:46:51 +1100
Subject: Re: Syllabus Construction Was RASHBAM
> From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
> On the Rashi Rashbam issue, Avi recently suggested that "there is
> nothing to discuss" and that "it is not our job to chose between
> Rishonim."
>
> I disagree--we ALL make choices among rishonim and it therefore
> behooves us to make explicit our underlying rules.
In many cases it's not what you say, but how you phrase it.
> How so: a) You sit down on Friday night to go over the Parshah...you
> have limited time...you may read CHumash and Rashi but then what...do
> you frequently read Ramban but not Rashbam--if so then YOU have made a
> decision about Rishonim...
No, you have made a decision about what you want to learn at that time,
at that stage of your life, and for a given Parsha etc One need not be
absolutist, nor phrase it that way.
> perhaps ALL you say is that the Ramban stimulates you more but that is
> still a decision b) a school principle outlines a curriculum for a
> class---the teacher has limited time (4 hours a day for 5 days a week
> for a semester).
Again, those decisions are also under review and change. They do not
mean that a) is always BETTER than b) or that a) should ALWAYS be
preferred over b). Goodness, in a given school, with a particular type
of student, it may very well be the case that you derive the most and
the students gain the most from simply learning choice Midroshim.
> How many Rishonim to cover? In fact dont' we typically chose SOME
> rishonim over others? Arent there reasons c) You are writing a
> chumash like the stone chumash etc. Sure you could be
> encyclopedic...but typically you make choices!
There were indeed many schools of thought that said that one should
break one's head and avoid ALL Rishonim when learning Be-Iyyun. In some
cases, those Gedolim could also have used emotive words and said "that
Rishon missed the point of the Gemora and here is a much better
explanation". That's okay. They do not blanketly disenfranchise or
PERMANENTLY remove their work from curricula. I am sure there are people
who still don't use Kehati. They used to burn it or remove it from
Bottei Midrash if I recall correctly. Today, it is accepted, and what's
more, it's also reprinted right next to the Rav.
> All **I** have done is made explicit what choices I made. I chose
> Rishonim whose commentary requires certain advanced reading skills
> (Like comparison of texts) over those rishonim that are flat (Just
> commenting on the immediate text).
I would rephrase this without the need to comment on your particular
view on how that Rishon's interpetations don't "work for you". All that
needs to be said is that I find X,Y,Z to be really great to learn.
Sure, on specific Psukim/issues where you cannot understand how a Rishon
could say what they said, ask the question. Our writings are full of
"Vezorich Iyun". (Yes, I know there are cases when Rishonim and
Acharonim are less than kind on the odd occasion in their terminology,
and that's unfortunate when it's used as a pre-text for those of us who
aren't at the commensurate level to do so.
> I similarly chose Rishonim whose commentary AGREES with Chazal over
> those that dont.
Not at all. You can ask how a Rishon came to a PARTICULAR view for which
you can find no Chazal. It could well be that his teacher told him. I
am sure you agree that there is no Rishon who seeks to only bring
comments and interpretations for which we cannot find a supporting
Chazal.
> I can make further comments about **my** choice. If I continuously
> read non-stimulating rishonim then I would get bored and unhappy. I
> would probably want to spend alot of time watching TV and
> movies. Maybe I would want to go into secular studies to stimulate my
> starved brain. But because I "hang out" with Rishonim that encourage
> comparative texts and other important skills I do not feel the need to
> go elsewhere.
I have no problem with that, as long as you don't say the Rishon is
unstimulating. You can say that other Rishonim stimulate YOU greatly.
One needs to understand that Harbei Drochim LaMokom. The Rishon's place
in Gan Eden will certainly be surrounded by people who were stimulated
by his work.
> But now I go even further. I assert that I am not that different than
> other people. If I would get bored reading these rishonim and go
> elsewhere for stimulation then other people would also.
You can make that assertion, however, I would postulate that you could
not prove it.
> And if this is so then these rishonim are hurting Judaism in a
> specific measurable manner...there is less people-hours of Torah in
> the world because of them.
First prove, then go on.
> Let me get specific. A year ago I published an article on the meaning
> of Aleph-Caph in the Jewish Bible Quarterly. The President of the YU
> chemistry / physics association wants to know why I made harsh
> comments on the Rashbam. But indeed I want to know why few people in
> that association are writing Bible articles. Is it lack of skill?
> Surely not...we are both trained in writing articles. Rather it is
> because I have spent 10s and 20s of hours on the meaning of ach till I
> had something to say. And why didn't others spend 10s of hours?
> Because they werent motivated.
Possibly because your previous assertion that "I am not different from
other people" is indeed false.
> And why werent they motivated? Because the Rashbam said in effect you
> dont have to look for answers...it is OK to read the text as is ..it
> is ok not to ALLWAYS seek logical pristine explanations to Chazal
> ...indeed such explanations dont exist.
etc
I enjoy your posts Russell and often agree, but I do think should
consider making some points in a different manner (as above).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 05:31:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Syllabus Construction Was RASHBAM
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Russell J Hendel wrote:
> On the Rashi Rashbam issue, Avi recently suggested that "there is nothing
> to discuss" and that "it is not our job to chose between Rishonim."
>
> I disagree--we ALL make choices among rishonim and it therefore behooves
> us to make explicit our underlying rules.
Russell, it appears to me that you have clearly taken this reply out of
it's context and your subsequent discussion has little to do with my
reply to you. In addition, you have phrases that you have placed in
quotes above. The only way I understand reading your response is that
the phrases in quotes are one's you are attributing to me. I do not see
that I wrote the second phrase, and when doing a search on the list, I
do not find that phrase written. It appears that you are creating an
opinion you wish to argue against and then attributing it to me.
To recap the situation as I see it, the statement you had made in the
submission I was responding to was:
> I **do** believe that there is one AND ONLY ONE unique meaning to
> every Biblical verse. THere are no layers.
It seemed clear to me from the rest of your submission, that if there is
an arguement between two reshonim on the meaning of a textual verse,
then one of them is, in an absolute sense, "correct" and one of them is
"wrong". You then laid out your arguements for how you choose which
reshon is "correct" and which reshon is "wrong".
That was clearly the position that I was responding to. I stated then,
and have seen no reason yet to change my mind, that it would be of
interest to consider the validity of your original statement - that
there is only one unique / correct meaning to every biblical verse.
It was the position that you took that you were able to determine which
reshon was right and which was incorrect - to the extent that you
proposed eliminating one from the chumash, that I took objection
to. Here is what I wrote:
> But I do not see how one of us can have the audacity to say that
> reshon A is correct and that reshon B is wrong. When one gets to the
> point that one feels comfortable saying that reshon B's commentary is
> of such little value that it should not even be printed in the Chumash
> with various other commentaries, I do not see that there is value in
> continueing the conversation.
I very clearly did not say, as Russall is attributing to me, that we do
not have the right / obligation to choose which reshon or acharon we
want to spend time studying. I said that it is not our place to say that
one reshon is "wrong" in an absolute sense and that the reshon should
not be studied. I think it is obvious to all that we all make choices on
how we spend our time that we allocate to learning, and chosing what we
learn is one of those items.
> But now I go even further. I assert that I am not that different than
> other people. If I would get bored reading these rishonim and go
> elsewhere for stimulation then other people would also. And if this is so
> then these rishonim are hurting Judaism in a specific measurable
> manner...there is less people-hours of Torah in the world because of
> them.
> <snip>
> Enough for now. I think I have made my point. My point in motivation!
> Rashi motivates me to study chazal; Rashbam doesnt! I dont see a way out
> of this. I therefore dont want Rashbam on my chumashim because it would
> demotivate me.
> <snip>
> Returning to Avi's statement "there is nothing to discuss...we cant judge
> rishonim" I would respond "We can discuss what turns us on...not turns us
> on emotionally (eg I like Rashbam vs Rashi) but what turns us on
> intellectually (e.g I spent 50 hours studying the meaning of Aleph Caph
> because Rashi made me). And if we discuss what turns us on intellectually
> <snip>
> Perhaps I am wrong?! But I have yet to hear an answer to the above
> argument. I have yet to even hear that it is me vs others. I think there
> is something to discuss here.
I think it is intellectually very imprecise to make a statement that
because I think this way, probably all / most other people think this
way. It is also likely correct that for most people the division
between the "emotional" vs "intellectual" response to reshonim is not as
large as it may be for you. I have already stated clearly that I
apreciate having and studying the Rashbam's perush on chumash, along
with others, including Ibn Ezra and Ramban. Those who know me can make a
determination of the balance between "emotional" and "intellectual" in
my response to reshonim. I happen to find much of what seems to "turn
you on" as things that I do not find of particular interest. I have no
problem finding enough in the reshonim and acharonim, both on Chumash,
Halacha, Talmud etc that engage me and stimulate me to learn. I have no
problem choosing a sefer among the many, and would love to have more
time to spend learning (maybe I should stop doing as much mail-jewish as
I do, but that is a choice I make as well), and tend to change what I
focus my learning on a regular basis. I would not want my choices
limited because you think some reshon is wrong.
Avi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 50 Issue 54
