Volume 50 Number 66
                    Produced: Tue Dec 20  6:38:45 EST 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Abba/Ima etc
         [Leah S. Gordon]
Chushim ben Dan's murder of his great-uncle Eisav HaRasha
         [Baruch C. Cohen]
Issur Dam (was Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs) (2)
         [Elozor Reich, Avi Feldblum]
Jury duty
         [Dr. Josh Backon]
"Minor" Holiday
         [Immanuel Burton]
Names for Parents
         [Michael Mirsky]
Sephardic wedding minhagim
         [Deborah Wenger]
Tides and Tour Guides
         [Orrin Tilevitz]
Tzedaka during chazarat hashatz (3)
         [<ERSherer@...>, Rabbi Ed Goldstein, Joel Rich]


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:13:40 -0800
Subject: Abba/Ima etc

Regarding why it might be more common to hear "Abba/Mommy":

In my family-of-origin, we went to Israel for sabbatical when I (the
oldest) was 3 turning 4.  At that time, both of my parents seemed to
want us to start with the Abba/Ima instead of Mommy/Daddy (Mommy/Papa?
I'm actually not sure, but since the gentleman in question sometimes
reads M.J, perhaps the answer to this question will bring him out of

It caught on for my father (now Abba to all of us) but not as much for
my mother (now sometimes Ima, but often Mommy, though always Ima in
third person conversations among siblings).  I always thought that it
was because my attachment was so strong to 'Mommy' that it couldn't be
broken, but that can't be the whole explanation since two of my
sisters are young enough that they arguably could have been born into
calling her Ima, but all of us use Mommy sometimes.

I bet, though, that there are some frum Anglophonic families where the
parents want to pick up the Abba/Ima thing late enough into toddlerhood
that it would be affected by childhood attachment to one name or

--Leah ("Mommy" to my kids) Gordon


From: <Azqbng@...> (Baruch C. Cohen)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:51:10 EST
Subject: Chushim ben Dan's murder of his great-uncle Eisav HaRasha

There is a very interesting Gemara (Sotah 13a) that describes Yaakov
Avinu's funeral and the confrontation with Eisav: When the family
reached the Me'aras HaMachpelah, Yaakov's brother, Eisav came and tried
to stop them. Eisav claimed that Yaakov had already used his allotted
plot in the cave -- by burying Leah there -- and that the remaining plot
belonged to him (Eisav). Naftali began running to Egypt to retrieve the
receipt. In the meantime, Chushim, son of Dan, came forward. He was deaf
and he had not heard the exchange between Eisav and the children of
Yaakov. He inquired about the cause of the delay. Chushim was incensed
that his grandfather should remain in shame, unburied, until Naftali
returned.  So Chushim took a club, hit Eisav over the head, and killed
him. Eisav's eyes popped out of his head and fell on Yaakov's feet. And
Yaakov opened his eyes and smiled.

If indeed Eisav raised a legal claim to be buried in the Me'aras
HaMachpelah and evidence was needed by the family to rebut his claim,
then what was Eisav's crime that was so heinous at that point in time
(as opposed to his past criminal record) that he deserved to be
bludgeoned to death by his great-nephew? If Eisav's sin was the Chillul
Hashem created by the delay of Yaakov's burial, Yaakov's funeral was
already prolonged in that eulogies took 40 days and the trip from Egypt
to Chevron took time. Had Chushim waited for the swift Naftali to
return, the evidence would have been properly and timely presented to
rebut Eisav's claims and the funeral would have proceeded
promptly. Eisav's dispute would have resulted in a relatively small
delay. (I find it further ironic that Chushim's father Dan symbolized
justice. As a trial attorney, we know that judgments must be deliberate
and based on evidence. Chusim's actions appear impetuous which would run
contrary to his genetic DNA for measured justice). Please advise.

Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
Los Angeles, CA


From: Elozor Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:59:35 -0000
Subject: Issur Dam (was Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs)

> From: Avi Feldblum <avi@...>
> I have two questions, one for anyone who knows, one more directly to
> Elozer's point "e" above.
> 1) Following standard halachic melecha (salting), what is the physical
>    reality concerning any remaining blood? If one does a chemical
>    analysis of the remaining liquid that may come out of the meat
>    following the process, does one find any blood?
>2) For Elozer, in point "e" are you asserting that the mohel that comes
>   out is not chemically equivalent to blood? If it is shown that it is
>   chemically equivalent to blood, are you stating that it would be
>   halachicaly forbidden?

I am not a chemist so cannot give a scientific reply.

The Shach (see also the Gro for sources) Yoreh Deah 69:78 states
unequivocally that exudations after proper salting and rinsing are not
treated as blood.

It might also be borne in mind that blood after halachic salting has the
status of "dam shemolchoi" and is only an issur derabbonon according to
the Poskim.

I would like to add a qualification to my earlier posting on this
topic. It is correct to state that raw meat may be eaten without salting
provided the surface blood is rinsed off. However, one should also
ensure that veins and arteries within the meat are removed or

Elozor Reich

From: Avi Feldblum <avi@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:59:35 -0000
Subject: Issur Dam (was Reality, Halachic Reality, and Bugs)

It appears to me, Elozor, that you are ending up supporting the original
assertion: That "Halachic Reality" does not necessarily equal "Physical
Reality". The chemistry is not relevent. Even if the liquid that comes
out of the meat is "physically / chemicaly" blood, from a halachic
perspective it is not and is fully permitted to be eaten. I think this
was the original point of the first submission.



From: Dr. Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:13:45
Subject: Jury duty

The gemara in Gittin 88b prohibits interacting with gentile courts
(ERCHA'OHT) since it doesn't follow Jewish law and this is the halacha
(Choshen Mishpat 26:1).[I'll leave out ercha'oht sheb'suria (Sanhedrin
23a) as it isn't relevant to the discussion and is only relevant to a
secular Jewish court HEDYOTOT prohibited rabinically].

If I were back in the States and were called to jury duty (in a capital
case), I do the old Catskill shtick:

JUDGE (stern voice): "Will the foreman of the jury please
       rise and state the verdict!"
FOREMAN (little old Jewish guy with a very thick Yiddish
         accent): "Your honor, first of all vee vould like
         to tenk all de vonderful pipple on dis jury who
         made dis occasion possible: Mr. Murray Bernstein,
         Mr. Sam Levine, Mr. Herbie Birnbaum, Mrs. Sadie
         Moscowitz, Mr Ira Cohen...."
JUDGE (getting angry): "Will the foreman PLEASE state the
       vedict !!!"
FOREMAN: "Vats de rush ? Your honor, vee de jury of Manhattan,
         de Bronx and Staten, after much discussion, deliberation
         and TZURISS you vouldn't believe, your honor vee decided
         VEE SHOULDN'T MIX IN!!!!"



From: Immanuel Burton <iburton@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:08:16 -0000
Subject: Re: "Minor" Holiday

> Can't we cook on *all* holidays?!

Not on Yom Kippur, or indeed Shabbos...

My father told me a story once concerning a non-observant colleague he
had at one time.  My father told him once that he works on the minor
holidays, to which the colleague replied that he also did.  It was only
after further discussion that my father realised that whereas he had
used the phrase "minor holidays" to refer to Purim and Chanukah, his
non-observant colleague used the phrase to refer to Pesach, Shevuos and
Succos, with Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur being for him the major

As a small side point, even though Chanukah is often referred to as a
minor holiday, it is indeed the longest holiday at 8 days, whereas
Pesach and Succos are only really 7 days long.

Immanuel Burton.


From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:38:48 -0500
Subject: Names for Parents

We sent our children to a religious Zionist school which teaches ivrit
b'ivrit (more or less . .).  So we taught our kids to call us Abba & Ima
(even though we speak English at home - my wife doesn't know Ivrit).

In order to reinforce it, we also called each other Abba & Ima.  I am
still in the habit (although she has dropped it) of calling her Ima even
though our B"H 5 children are 17 and 22 now (you do the math!).  So I am
just as likely to call her dear or Honey as Ima!



From: Deborah Wenger <debwenger@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:40:40 -0500
Subject: Sephardic wedding minhagim

I attended a lovely and lively Sephardic (Syrian? Turkish?) wedding the
other night. I've been to a number of Sephardic weddings before and am
familiar with some of the minhagim that differ from Ashkenazic minhagim,
such as wrapping the couple in a tallit and saying "borei minei besamim"
under the chupah.

But this time I saw one I had never seen before - toward the end of the
ceremony, the mesader kiddushin called up a bunch of kohanim (there must
have been at least half a dozen) to say birkat kohanim over the
couple. Is this commonly done? What is the source of this minhag?

Deborah Wenger


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:23:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tides and Tour Guides

  I have been following this thread with increasing confusion.

1.  Tour guides have a well-deserved reputation as founts of
misinformation.  But I thought that the original post's point about the
idiotic Israeli tour guide was that this guide should have been
different, since the government licenses them and supposedly trains them

2.  Mike Gerver writes: <You only get tides in the ocean, or in a body
of water that is close enough to the ocean that water from the ocean can
flow into it or out of it, like a bay or estuary. In an isolated lake,
the moon and sun do not produce tides, because there is no place for the
water to go, or come from.>

How's that again?  Tides result from the gravity of the sun and moon.
All bodies of water have tides, although for most (other than oceans)
they're too small for the effect to be measurable.  The Great Lakes are
an exception, with measurable tides.  See  And as far as "there is no place for
the water to go, or come from", all lakes have inlets and most have


From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:38:25 EST
Subject: Re: Tzedaka during chazarat hashatz

<< My father's minhag was to give after Kedusha -- during Chazarat
 Hashatz. Many years later I found a source for this practice. It says
 Teshuva, Tefila, Tzedaka. Follow that order. After inner Teshuva during
 davening, saying Shmone Esreh (Tefila), then give Tzedaka.

 Rabbi Dr. Nachum Amsel >>

    Every shul I have ever davened shachris in, somebody takes the
pushka around during the shaliach tzibur's chazorous hashas. I assume
this is what Rabbi Amsel refers to.

From: <BERNIEAVI@...> (Rabbi Ed Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:14:40 EST
Subject: Tzedaka during chazarat hashatz

Rabbi Wohlgemuth shlita told us we should give tzedaka before tfila to
have an extra zchut.  kind of like buying your lulav before yom kippur
(something else I believe he said).  Many give during vay'varech david.

Rabbi Ed Goldstein

From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 05:10:38 -0500
Subject: Tzedaka during chazarat hashatz

> My father's minhag was to give after Kedusha -- during Chazarat Hashatz.
> Many years later I found a source for this practice. It says Teshuva,
> Tefila, Tzedaka. Follow that order. After inner Teshuva during davening,
> saying Shmone Esreh (Tefila), then give Tzedaka.
> Rabbi Dr. Nachum Amsel

Is this your own logic or did you find this brought down somewhere?
Joel Rich


End of Volume 50 Issue 66