Volume 50 Number 80
                    Produced: Mon Jan  2  4:45:28 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Any experience with hagalah tanks for pesach?
         [Sam Gamoran]
Chassidism and renewal (was: Shtreimel)
         [Alex Heppenheimer]
Jewish Clothing
         [Meir Wise]
Kosher certification of harmful foodstuffs
         [Carl Singer]
Labels --   was  Frum and unconventional
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
         [Nathan Lamm]
Mattityahu = Kohen Gadol?
         [Lisa Liel]
Minhag Eretz Yisrael
         [Lisa Liel]
Rabbis in tuxedos
         [Richard Schultz]
         [Noyekh Miller]
         [Ben Katz]
Tuxedos (2)
         [Jay F Shachter, Nathan Lamm]


From: Sam Gamoran <SGamoran@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:22:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Any experience with hagalah tanks for pesach?

In just about every community in Israel they set up communal hagalah
services.  I've lived in Hashmonaim for almost 20 years so I'm out of
touch with other places but basically they seemed to be the same.

A day and hours - usually several days before Pesach is announced in the
calendars, meeting boards, notice boards, etc.  The setup is one or more
55 gallon drums filled with water and heated with huge Bunsen burners to
boil.  Steel mesh nets are used to hold the items to be dunked.

In Israel I believe they are more mekeil (lenient) about kashering
plastic items by hagalah though I've seen cases where the heat ruined
the item in question.  Preparation should be done in advance but since
the whole thing takes place outdoors (rain unlikely :-)) you can always
find some steel wool and a corner to sit down and scrape something.

The attendants working the operation are generally one or two people
from the local government (e.g. the mazkir yishuv) and some volunteers.
Some tend to be more makpid about what is acceptable preparation, others
less so.  The general rules are separate drums for dairy and meat, items
to be kashered should not have been used for 24 hours prior, and they
should be clean.

An extra one of the same Bunsen burner contraptions can be used for
libun of things like stove grates etc. which are used in direct contact
with fire and should therefore be kashered the same way.

Sam Gamoran


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:52:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Chassidism and renewal (was: Shtreimel)

In MJ 50:78, Saul Davis wrote:

> Once hasiduth was an almost revolutionary, renewal movement in Judaism
> - sadly no more.  Hasiddim are often the most reactionary of all Jews
> and as a movement (with the usual exception of Habad) have not made
> any new contribution to Judaism in recent years (about a century).

As a Chabadnik, I appreciate the compliment. However, this statement is
not really correct nor fair: it ignores, among others, the outreach
contributions of Bobover Chassidus in Galicia during the interwar years
[interview with Rabbi Moshe Landau, in The World that Was: Poland (1997:
The Living Memorial, dist. Mesorah Publications), pp. 69ff], and of the
Bostoner Rebbe, shlita, in America since the '60s [Hanoch Teller, The
Bostoner (1990: Feldheim), p. 18]. No doubt someone who's more familiar
than I with the various branches of present-day Chassidus would be able
to give more and better examples.

A lichtigen Chanukah,


From: <Meirhwise@...> (Meir Wise)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 06:26:01 EST
Subject: Re: Jewish Clothing

My late, lamented Rebbe, Rabbi Dr S B Leperer zatzal, the talmudist and
historian once said that Jewish clothing consists of a headcovering,
talit and tefillin. All the rest is culturally influenced.

Meir Wise, London


From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:15:15 -0500
Subject: Kosher certification of harmful foodstuffs

> Not sure I agree. The case of fish and meat would seem to indicate that
> halacha obligates rabbis to ban unsafe foods. I'm not sure that
> obligation ceased to exist once "medical authorities or the government"
> began to worry about the same health issues. In any case, practically I
> can see many Orthodox Jews ceasing to eat a dangerous food once it
> didn't have a hechsher, but not stop similarly if medicine or government
> expressed a concern.

I"m not sure that fish / meat is a good example.  This is a long
established issur and kosher certification agencies simply adhere to it.
They are not breaking new ground by saying X is bad for your health (or
we have determined that X is bad for you) and therefore we won't give it
a hechser.

I just had a tangential thought -- consider medicines -- should a
certification read "kosher only for those who have a prescription?"
After all the medicines may be harmful (even fatal) to others.



From: Ari Trachtenberg
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:39:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Labels --   was  Frum and unconventional

> From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>

> Someone who eats salads and milchigs in non-kosher restaurants, but says
> they keep kosher.
> OK -- those are the easy ones -- it gets tougher.

Why is this case easy?  Though I personally only eat at strictly kosher
restaurants, it's not clear to me that the example you are citing is
necessarily a clear violation of halacha (consider the well-argued issue
of eating bread cooked by a non-Jew).

> Even when it's something as simple as "I eat salads at Denny's" --
> When you say this, what response are you expecting from me?

I don't see why you'd assume a response is expected.  I would simply
ignore such a comment (or make a suitably humorous response) as I would
do with "I like to paint my toenails blue" :-)



From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:41:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Matityahu

Shimon asks:

> was Matityahu's father the (in)famous Yochanan Kohen Gadol
> who... became a tzduki?

Probably not. There were quite a few Kohanim Gedolim named "Yochanan" or
variants like "Chananya" or "Chaninah" or "Chonyo". If you see the name
"Onias," that's the Greek version. And there were lots of "Oniases."
(Just as there are lots of "Johns" today- it's the same name.) This is
what makes it difficult, for example, to determine who exactly "Shimon
HaTzadik" was and when he lived, as various names repeat often.

Nachum Lamm


From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:22:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Mattityahu = Kohen Gadol?

From: <shimonl@...> (Shimon)

> Interesting! To tie the two together (`al hanisim and the 
> historical shiur), was Matityahu's father the (in)famous Yochanan 
> Kohen Gadol who... became a tzduki? (and was he only elevated to 
> that post *because* he did so?)

If I'm not mistaken, the bad Yochanan Kohen Gadol was the grandson of
Mattitiyahu.  Shimon's son, also known as John (Yochanan) Hyrcanus.

There were numerous Yochanan's in that line.  Chonyo is a nickname for
Yochanan, and if you came across someone called Onias, that's just the
Greek form of Chonyo, used by Josephus.



From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:24:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Minhag Eretz Yisrael

From: <shimonl@...> (Shimon)
> Mark Steiner <marksa@...> wrote:
> > For example, it is considered minhag EY to add the word 
> > 'kadisha" in the kaddish derabbanan ("atra kadisha haden"), yet 
> > I heard this formula among Jews of North African origin while 
> > visiting France.
> I don't understand why anyone would call France an "atra 
> kadisha". ;-) On the other hand, I have often heard Sefardim here 
> in EY say "oraita kadishta, di vechol atar ve-atar". In other 
> words, the adj. kadish(t)a applying to the Torah, not the place.

Sometimes people get used to a nusach tefillah and don't really think
about things like that.  I suspect that for a long time after Mashiach
comes, there are still going to be people who include "vayitzmach
purkanei viykareiv mishichei" in kaddish.



From: Richard Schultz <schultr@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:32:48 +0200
Subject: Rabbis in tuxedos

Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...> writes:

: At Kehillath Jeshurun, on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, the Rav,
: his assistants, and officers of the shul (at least them, maybe others
: as they desire) wear formal morning clothes (cutaway, ascot, top hat,
: etc.)  on Shabbos, and tuxedos on yom tov.

Which demonstrates that (at least on yom tov) they are obeying the
halakhic rules about not dressing like goyim: etiquette forbids the
wearing of formal evening clothes (e.g. a dinner jacket aka "tuxedo")
before 6 p.m.

Richard Schultz


From: Noyekh Miller <nmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:15:40 -0500
Subject: Shtrayml

Frank Silbermann writes:

	I don't think it was a case of Chassidic rabbis getting a sudden
	inspiration to imitate the clothes of Polish nobility.  I think
	they simply decided not to change their way of dress when
	upper-class gentile fashions changed.

I've tried reading that paragraph from left to right and from right to
left but I still don't understand it.  However, I don't recall anyone
suggesting that the various admurim were "suddenly" inspired to put on
white silk knee breeches and buckled shoes.  Nothing sudden about it.
Nothing sudden either about the way O khazonim wore headgear manifestly
modelled on those of the Russian Orthodox clergy.  And need I mention
that this is written in English?  Or that we Ashkenazim haven't spoken
Aramaic (itself a nokhkrimenish no matter what the loshn-koydesh
ideologues say) in a couple of thousand years?

All of that is obvious enough.  What makes it interesting is the way in
which 'nokhmakhn di goyim' collides with more local counter-movements.
I have in mind the way that the Klausenberger reverse the direction of
their double-breated coats (or was it that the ribbons on their hats had
the bow on the right?).  I have in mind the way my neighborhood is full
of young men whose tsitses are a good foot longer than those worn by the
older men from the same shul.  (And by way of looking at this from a
wider perspective I note that the ankle-length tsitses remind me of the
ankle-length keychains worn by zoot-suiters in the late 1930's.)

Sure we're different.  We're as different as everybody else.

Noyekh Miller


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:22:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Shtreimel

>From: Saul Davis <saul.davis@...> 
>The passage of the shtreimel from the (often anti-Semitic) Eastern
>European upper-class to poor hasiddim is obscure but has examples in
>other places. Jews have copied the headgear of the local upper-classes
>and kept it even centuries later.

         not only that - the entire concept of headcovering for men came
from Babylonia, where it was (apparantly) the norm.  In Israel, one
could still be a shliach tzibur (oleh el hatyavah) into the 8th century
for keriyat shema without a head covering (source: Margalit, Hilukim
beyn anshei mizrah veanshi maarav)


From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:52:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tuxedos

They wear formal morning clothes on Shabbat, and tuxedos on Yom Tov?

If so, then they dress more formally on Shabbat than on Yom Tov, whereas
the halakha is to dress better on Yom Tov than on Shabbat.  The tuxedo
(or, as we gentlemen say, "dinner jacket") is semi-formal, not formal,
evening wear (formal evening wear requires a tailcoat, which must be
black, or at best midnight blue, even in the summertime, with a white
bow tie and white vest, no cummerbund or cummervest).

Even more puzzling, though, than their contravention of halakha by
dressing better on Shabbat than on Yom Tov, is the confusion between
morning clothes and evening clothes.  A gentlemen never appears in a
tuxedo earlier then 6pm, unless he is being buried in one.

Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
Chicago IL  60645-4111

From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:50:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Tuxedos

I'm not sure if this belongs on the list, but at least let me reply to
Mr. Schachter:

I know all of that. The best I can assume is that my facts are somewhat
mixed up, and they wear formal morning clothes at Shacharit/Mussaf and
formal evening wear (white tie) at Mincha/Ma'ariv.

I'm sure there are some members of the list who actually daven there who
can enlighten us and encourage us that KJ officers are not committing
fashion faux pas.


End of Volume 50 Issue 80