Volume 51 Number 25
Produced: Fri Feb 17 5:26:40 EST 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Baruch Dayan Haemet - Dr. Reuven Rudman z"l (2)
[Esther Zamek, Mark Steiner]
End of Shirat Hayam
[menashe]
Interesting Minhag re Reading Shirat Hayam
[Shmuel Himelstein]
Lingua Franca
[Keith Bierman]
"Raboysay mir veln benshn"
[Arie]
Verb Root and Infinitive added to Learn Hebrew Verbs
[Jacob Richman]
The word "yahrzeit"
[Shayna B. Kravetz]
Yiddish, Aramaic, and other Vernaculars
[Arie]
Yiddish In Ritual (2)
[Bill Bernstein, Gershon Dubin]
Yiddish in ritual
[Nadine Bonner]
Yiddish in Ritual
[Akiva Miller]
Yiddish- Rabosay mir veln benshn
[Irwin E. Weiss, Esquire]
Zimmun
[Joel Rich]
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From: Esther Zamek <estherza@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:00:04 +0200
Subject: Baruch Dayan Haemet - Dr. Reuven Rudman z"l
It is with deep sadness that we notify the Mail.Jewish community of the
sudden passing of one of our regular contributors, Rabbi Reuben Rudman,
of New York and Jerusalem. The funeral took place this evening
(Wednesday) in Jerusalem.
The family is sitting shiva at his home, 3 Beit Eshel Street (off
Mishmar Ha-Am), Katamon, Jerusalem. Telephone (02) 563-1338 (Intl:
+972-2-563-1338).
May his family be comforted among all the mourners for Zion and
Yerushalayim.
Perry and Esther Zamek
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From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:53:29 +0200
Subject: Baruch Dayan Haemet - Dr. Reuven Rudman z"l
It is my sad duty to inform the readers of mail-jewish of the
sudden passing of one of our most scholarly participants, Dr. Reuven
Rudman z"l, at age 69, of a stroke on Monday. Members of this list will
miss his erudite contributions. A scion of Lithuanian talmidei
hakhamim, Dr. Rudman himself was a significant talmid hakham. At the
same time, he pursued a successful career in chemistry. It was not long
ago that the Rudmans made aliya and built their home in the Katamon
section of Jerusalem, making their house a meeting place for a wide
circle of friends. It was only here (Jerusalem) that we were privileged
to meet Reuven z"l and, tibadel lehayim, his outstanding wife Idel. May
his soul be bound up in the bond of life, and may his wonderful family
find some measure of solace in the outstanding legacy that he left them,
and us.
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From: menashe <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:37:40 +0200
Subject: End of Shirat Hayam
This Shabbat I read the Parashat Beshalah 3 times, each from a different
Sefer Tora. The Shira is written like bricks, however, the last word -
bayam - in 1 sefer was at the end of the line like the other lines, in 2
seferim, it was toward the end. Any reason known?
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From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:30:47 +0200
Subject: Interesting Minhag re Reading Shirat Hayam
This past Shabbat, Parashat Beshalach, I davened in a Shul where the
Baal Kriyah read the Torah in the Edot Mizrach (in this case, Morrocan)
melody. Among Ashkenazim, there is a special melody for Shirat Hayam
("Az yashir), starting in the middle of Revi'i. In this case, though,
there was a special melody from the beginning of Shlishi until the end
of Shirat Hayam.
Is anyone familiar with such a Minhag?
Shmuel Himelstein
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From: Keith Bierman <Keith.Bierman@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:47:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Lingua Franca
> From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
> The Molad discussions evolved out of a discussion of the use of Yiddish
> in religious ritual. Let's expand the question -- what (if any) parts
> of prayer and ritual may be conducted in the lingua franca (common
> language - in this case meaning the language that an individual uses as
> their "native" or first language.)
>
> For example: May an English speaker daven in English -- with the same
> effect (what ever that means) as davening in Hebrew?
>
> .... with sources please.
Isn't this dealt with in Maschet Megillah? It's been too long since I
studied; but I believe the discussion in the gemora nets out to "you can
pray in any language you understand" however, davening in Lashon
Hakodesh (Hebrew) is effective even if you do NOT understand the precise
meaning. I believe it logically follows that Lashon HaKodesh should be
employed for any public prayer, since for any large group someone may
not have *precise* understanding of whatever vernacular is employed ...
but the prayer will be effective for them when done in LhK.
Keith H. Bierman <keith.bierman@...>|
http://blogs.sun.com/khb
<speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2006
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From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:43:44 +0200
Subject: Re: "Raboysay mir veln benshn"
in MJ 51/24, Immanuel Burton wrote:
>As a matter of curiosity, if one is eating with enough people to
>make a zimmun, and someone there wants to bentch and says,
>"Should we bentch?", should everyone else present try and
>decide who should lead the zimmun, or should they respond with
>"Yehi shem..."?
i think people should be made aware of the problem and avoid a situation
where someone suggests bentching in a manner which is in itself the
opening to zimun. one solution i've seen is that someone points out to
the "offender" that what he just said is sufficient to start zimun so he
should take care, and THEN everyone else present tried to decide who
should lead the zimun.
arie
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From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:16:33 +0200
Subject: Verb Root and Infinitive added to Learn Hebrew Verbs
Hi Everyone!
User feedback to the launch of Learn Hebrew Verbs
http://www.hebrew-verbs.co.il
has been very good. The site has generated the largest
amount of launch feedback than any of my other sites.
One of the repeated suggestions that visitors have asked for
is to add the verb root and infinitive to the database. As of today,
I added the root and infinitive to all 300 verbs.
The English and Hebrew menus have been changed to
include these choices.
Feedback is welcome.
Please forward this message to anyone that may be interested
in learning Hebrew. Thank you!
Shavua Tov / Have a good week,
Jacob
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From: Shayna B. Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:06:05 -0500
Subject: Re: The word "yahrzeit"
Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...> writes:
>Mark Steiner writes:
> > Yiddish expressions penetrated the world of North African Jewry; for
> > example, yohrtsayt, for which there is no one word Hebrew expression.
> > (This was discussed not along ago on mail-jewish: Hazal use "yom
> > shemet bo aviv...")
>
>I cannot remember the exact reference, but I recall seeing a statement
>in the Ben Ish Chai explaining the the word Yahrzeit was Yiddish and
>"V'lo zeh roshei tevot" (not an abbreviation).
I suspect the Ben Ish Chai felt this was necessary because of the double
yud in 'yahrzeit', which might be mistaken for the double quote that
conventionally marks acronyms in Hebrew. Someone unfamiliar with the
word might read it as an abbreviation consisting of
yud-aleph-hei-resh-tzadi-tet and be left wondering what Hebrew phrase
this served as an acronym for.
Kol tuv.
Shayna in Toronto
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From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:51:21 +0200
Subject: Re: Yiddish, Aramaic, and other Vernaculars
in MJ 51/23, Mark Steiner wrote:
> Yiddish expressions penetrated the world of North African Jewry; for
> example, yohrtsayt, for which there is no one word Hebrew
> expression.
yohrtsayt isn't a one word expression either. it's yohr, or year and
tsayt, or time. in modern hebrew it's referred to as "yom hashana".
arie
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From: Bill Bernstein <billbernstein@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:16:32 -0600
Subject: Yiddish In Ritual
In 51:24 Gershon Dubin makes the comment about "mir vellen bentschen"
that it is "tzivui", which I take to mean imperative. I do not think
that is so. It is future tense. Yiddish also has an "exhortatory"
which would be "lomir bentschen." (i.e. "let us bentsch!") I have often
wondered why that phrase is never used.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:29:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Yiddish In Ritual
[In response to Bill above. Mod.]
I'm quoting Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky who knew Yiddish somewhat <g> than I.
Gershon
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From: Nadine Bonner <nfbonner@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:04:56 -0500
Subject: Yiddish in ritual
At our seder, my children ask the Four Questions in both Hebrew and
Yiddish. I recite the "Cho Lach Me Anya" in Yiddish, which I have done
since I was a child. Now that I am an adult, I see this is appropriate
since this invitation to the seder is written in Aramaic, the venacular
of the time. Later, Yiddish was the venacular for European Jewry.
For a scholarly look at the role of Yiddish in prayer, I recommend
"Seyder Tkhines: The Forgotten Book of Common Prayer for jewish Women"
by a British Yiddish scholar, Devra Kay. She is mainly interested in
women and prayer, but she gives a vivid picture of the role Yiddish
played in religious and secular life.
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:12:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Yiddish in Ritual
> Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky said that rabosay mir veln bentchn is a
> call to zimun, or pre-zimun as you say. He held that it is not
> properly replaced by rabosay nevarech, which could be a pre-zimun
> or simply a prediction of one's coming action (i.e. future rather
> than tzivui)
I am quite confident that in the English language, as used by most
people today, "Let's bentch" is a command (or at least a suggestion)
while "We will bentch" is the future tense, i.e., a prediction about
what will happen.
In modern English, the future tense can *sometimes* be used as a
command, such as when an authority figure says "You will do xyz." But
when a person is among equals, there is no implied authority with which
one can command "We will do xyz," so a more explicit command form should
be used: "Let's do xyz."
My understanding is that Hebrew and Modern Hebrew are more flexible than
modern English on this point, and that the future tense ("nevarech") can
indeed be used as the command form.
If the poster is quoting Rav Kamenetzky accurately, then Rav
Kamenetzky's point seems to be that - in his opinion - the Yiddish "mir
veln" is preferable, because it is an unabiguous command form (similar
to the English "Let's"), while the Hebrew "nevarech" is inadequate
because it could be either a command or future tense.
Akiva Miller
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From: Irwin E. Weiss, Esquire <irwin@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:56:36 -0500
Subject: Yiddish- Rabosay mir veln benshn
Immanuel Burton (51, #24) raises a very good point:
He writes:
> As a matter of curiosity, if one is eating with enough people to make a
> zimmun, and someone there wants to bentch and says, "Should we bentch?",
> should everyone else present try and decide who should lead the zimmun,
> or should they respond with "Yehi shem..."?
The custom is not to announce before counting the Omer, that "Today is
the nth day of the Omer" because then you would be counting the Omer
prior to reciting the Bracha, so, instead you say, "Yesterday was the
(n-1)th day" and then everyone knows what today is by, in their mind,
adding one.
So, maybe instead of saying "should we bentch" we should say, "Yesterday
we benched. We just finished eating."
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:24:13 -0500
Subject: Zimmun
> As a matter of curiosity, if one is eating with enough people to make a
> zimmun, and someone there wants to bentch and says, "Should we bentch?",
> should everyone else present try and decide who should lead the zimmun,
> or should they respond with "Yehi shem..."?
> Immanuel Burton.
Who owns the right to determine who leads? In my home or in a
lunchroom? S"A gives some priorities but what if someone jumps in and
starts? Help!
KT
Joel Rich
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End of Volume 51 Issue 25
