Volume 51 Number 46
                    Produced: Mon Mar  6  6:28:09 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Change in Kashrut policy
Common [and Uncommon] Misprounounciations
Common Mispronunciations (3)
         [Art Werschulz, Jay F Shachter, Arie]
Credit for Thought without deed
         [Daniel Geretz]
How to Pasken (Decide) a question
The letter shin
         [Nathan Lamm]
Mispronunciations [Tefeelin  (long E) Not  Tefilin]
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Pru Urvu
         [Akiva Miller]
Rhetoric versus reasoned halacha
         [Frank Silbermann]
Valentine's Day (2)
         [R. Meir Wise, Avi Feldblum]


From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:23:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Change in Kashrut policy

in MJ 51/43,  ERSherer wrote (in response to shmuel h, quoted 

>> Up to now, the Kashrut policy of all Israel's city rabbinates has
>> been an "all or nothing" approuch, whereby if one branch of a
>> certain chain could not receive a Hechsher, none of the other
>> branches would receive it either. Thus, for example, since one
>> branch of the "Aroma" coffee shop chain in Jerusalem is open 
>>on Shabbat, none of the others (even though they are closed on 
>>Shabbat) could receive a Hechsher. This rule, though, is based 
>>on cities. For example, while McDonalds in Jerusalem is not 
>>kosher (open on Shabbat, cheeseburgers, etc.), the one in 
>>Mevaseret Tziyon (10 minutes outside Jerusalem, but under a 
>>different city rabbinate) does have a Hechsher.

>I don't know whether these "chains" are really "chains" (all owned
>and operated by the same persons or entities) or wether the 
>stores are each an independent franchise, using the name and 
>purchasing supplies from the "chain". An example here (in 
>America) is Dunkin Donuts, each individual store is an 
>independent franchise, which buys baked goods from Dunkin 
>Donuts, but is free to buy other products from other sources. I get 
>my coffee and pastry every morning from a store across the street 
>from where I daven. This store has a hashgocho; there is another 
>place a mile east and a mile west of it on the same street, neither 
>of which has a hashgocho.

it's irrelevant to the rabbanut whether the store is owned by the 
chain or the franchisee. the idea is to prevent one from making a 
mistake by going into the macdonalds off ben yehuda and thinking 
it's kosher because the one on emek refaim or at the central bus 
station is kosher (and macdonalds asked to make its place in the 
central bus station kosher and was turned down by the rabanut, for 
that very reason). so the whole chain in any given city is denied a 
teudat kashrut, regardless of individual ownership, if any of the 
stores of that chain in that city is not eligible for it.
how would a shy jewish european or israeli tourist coming out of 
your shul and seeing you come out of the DD with coffee and 
pastry know that he can't go to either of the others, one perhaps 
right near his unaware-of-the-difference-between DD's elderly aunt, 
and the other maybe right near his hotel. 
note that in shmuel's post, he noted that the kosher Macs have to 
have a different color scheme. enough of a difference ? we'll find out.


From: Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 13:47:02 +0200
Subject: Common [and Uncommon] Misprounounciations

Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> writes of  Common mispronunciation
and his example is:  

> "Hodo al eretz veshamayim" and is often recited/sung as "HodU al eretz
> veshamayim."

and asks:

> I wonder if there is a similar verse to this one which leads to this
> mix-up.

We've been here before (i'm guessing 4 years ago) and I'm sure our
capable moderator will come up with the archive sources.  There must
have been some 20 examples we came up with.

My favorite is the various mispronouncing of "lisheinei" or
"lee-shay-nay" (not the tea) in the beginning of Shemoneh Esrei

Yisrael Medad

[As the mis-pronunciations continue, even after our learned discussions,
I'll allow this thread to continue, and maybe a few mispronunciations
will become slightly less common. A quick check of the archives show
that we have discussed pronunciation so often, that the number of hits
quickly exceeds 50 before we even go back a year or two. Mod.]


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:43:27 -0500
Subject: Common Mispronunciations


Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> writes:

> I imagine other forum members have further examples of common
> mispronunciations.

I've often been accused as being overly-pendatic, but anyway ...

Since Rosh Hodesh happened recently, two Hallel-related ones stick in my

(1) Towards the end of Psalm 114: "Eloahh" (that's supposed to be a
    mappiq-hei) being mispronounced as "Eloha" (which sounds like the
    Hawaiian word for "shalom").

(2) In the "Ana Hashem"s that appear in Psalm 118:  "hatzlichah" should be
    accented on the the last syllable.  For some reason, almost everybody
    in our shul accents the penultimate syllable.  (Perhaps that's a
    parallelism with "hoshiah" in the previous line.)  When I davven from
    the amud, I try to emphasize the proper accenting here, hoping that
    people will eventually catch on.  It hasn't happened yet.

How widespread are these errors?

Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: agw STRUDEL cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7060, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325

From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:12:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Common Mispronunciations

In v51n41 Shmuel Himelstein wrote: 
> I imagine other forum members have further examples of common
> mispronunciations.

I have never heard, or if I have heard I have never noticed, the
mispronunciations of Psalms 148:13 and of 130:2 that were mentioned by
Mr Himelstein prior to the cited passage above, and they are very, very,
disturbing, indicating that the state of public education in Israel, or
at least in Mr Himelstein's part of Israel, is much worse than I would
have ever expected.  And there is perhaps more profit in discussing how
it happens that people who are supposed to know how to read fail to read
the words that are plainly written in front of them, than in
accumulating lists of favorite mispronunciations.  But, since Mr
Himelstein has issued a veiled invitation for the latter, herewith are
some of my favorite common mispronunciations:

>From the Rosh HaShana prayers: "Hayyom haras olam", pronouncing the thav
as if it were a samekh, changing the meaning from "today is the birthday
of the universe" to "today the universe was obliterated".

>From Proverbs 31:29, recited by a husband every Friday night, as he
gazes lovingly across the table at his wife: "Rabbot banot asu xayil,
v'at alit al kullana", pronouncing the `ayin in "`alit" as if it were an
'alef, changing the meaning from, "many daughters have done valorously,
and you have exceeded them all" to "many daughters have done valorously,
and you have cursed out all of them".

>From Deuteronomy 6:4, recited by all male Jews twice a day, and
proclaimed by all Jews of both sexes in the climax to the Yom Kippur
prayers, and on their deathbeds: "shma yisrael, adonai eloheynu, adonai
exad", pronouncing the `ayin in "shma`" as if it were an 'alef, thereby
changing the meaning from "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God",
to "Perhaps, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God".

Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
Chicago IL  60645-4111

From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:50:08 +0200
Subject: Re: Common Mispronunciations

in MJ 51/41, Shmuel Himelstein wrote:

>"Hodo al eretz veshamayim" and is often recited/sung as "HodU 
>al eretz veshamayim."

and then when the sefer is placed in the aron, they say "uvnucha yomar"
instead of uvnucho yomar !" 



From: Daniel Geretz <dgeretz@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:06:25 -0500
Subject: Credit for Thought without deed

In the spirit of Mishenichnas Adar Marbim B'Simcha:

It seems that I can get "credit" for giving tzedakah to an organization
which never cashes the check.  What with all the expenditures for
mishloach manot, hamentaschen, computer mishloach manot "reciprocals",
single-malt scotch, stage makeup, and whatnot, I am a bit strapped for
cash this month.  Anyone out there who can post a list of organizations
that do not cash tzedakah checks....


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 16:38:45 +1100
Subject: How to Pasken (Decide) a question

From: Andy Goldfinger
> Here, in Baltimore, Rabbi Moshe Heineman has instituted "internships"
> for students who wish to learn how to posken.  They help handle
> questions with his guidance so they learn the practical side of psak.
> Does anyone know if this is being done elsewhere?

Of course. 

First of all, all rabbonim must undertake 'internship' [known as
'shimush' ] by an experienced posek, before they can begin to think of
doing it themselves.

Rav S. Wosner shlita has had such a system for many decades, and which
has created a situation that many [most?] charedi [especially chassidish
and Hungarian] rabbonim in the world today are his talmidim.  [IIIRC Rav
Wosner is in his 90s - biz 120].  A couple of names that come to mind
include, Rav Moshe Halberstam of the Bedatz Edah Hacharedis and Rav
Pinchos Breuer in Flatbush.

Similarly Rav Meir Brandsdorfer [of the same Bedatz] is where many go to
- especially to gain experience in Nashim shaalos.



From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:41:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The letter shin

In response to Mark Symons:

The letter shin is said to be derived from the word for teeth, "shayn"
or "shinayim." You can clearly see the teeth in the shape of the letter.

Another theory relates the shape to the word "thann," or "composite
bow." In K'tav Ivri, the letter is more of a continuous curve (which
leads to the Latin "S"), so it's a little clearer there.

Nachum Lamm


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 09:36:54 EST
Subject: Mispronunciations [Tefeelin  (long E) Not  Tefilin]

Carl A. Singer (MJv51n44) suggested:

<<Try those leather boxes that men wrap around their head & arm.
Tefeelin  (long E) Not  Tefilin>>

Ashkenazin will pronounce it as Carl suggested in mile'el, but
Sepharadim and Israelis, the majority of Hebrew speakers of today, will
pronounce it in mile'ra TefiLin, long Li.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:07:43 -0500
Subject: RE: Pru Urvu

Eitan Fiorino wrote:
> The explanation of pru ur'vu offered by Martin (that the
> mitzvah is in the trying) is expressed by Rabbi David
> Bleich in his many writings on assisted reproduction...
> I for one happen to find Rabbi Bleich's view particularly
> enlightened as it solves a conundrum, which is that there
> are many people who will try mightily and yet not have the
> opportunity  to fulfill this mitzvah.

I have heard this same answer for another conuncrum, namely, "How can I
be commanded to believe in G-d? It's not like other mitzvos which I can
force my body to engage in. Either I believe or I don't. It's not
something I can control!"

And the same answer applies: The mitzvah is in the trying. If you don't
yet believe, that's okay, as long as you are *trying* to believe. This
can be done in various ways, such as by looking for evidence and proofs,
or by associating with people who believe, and in other ways.

Akiva Miller


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:13:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rhetoric versus reasoned halacha

R. Meir Wise (issue 34):
>>> (Rav Rabinovitch forbade) Valentines day as the worst form
>>> of Avoda Zara

Leah S Gordon  
>> That sounds more like rhetoric than reasoned halakha.

R. Meir Wise (issue 34):
> I can assure Leah S Gordon that the Gaon Rav Rabinovitch
> does not speak rhetoric when dealing with fundamental issues
> like those celebrations based in avoda zara.

Leah S Gordon asked for sources; R. Meir Wise said it seemed obvious to
him, and Avi Feldblum asked for clarifications.

However, even if one were to accept that Valentine's Day were Avoda
Zara, to deny that the Gaon Rav Rabinovitch was speaking rhetoric rather
than reasoned halacha one would have to explain why passing one's
children through the fires of Moloch (to give one example) would not be
Avodah Zara of a kind worse than Valentine's Day.

What are Rav Rabinovitch's categories of Avoda Zara, ordered by badness?

Frank Silbermann	Memphis, Tennessee


From: <Meirhwise@...> (R. Meir Wise)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 04:10:57 EST
Subject: Re: Valentine's Day

As previously reported Rav Rabinovitch (Rosh Yeshivat Birkat Moshe,
author of Yad Peshuta on the Ramabam, Shu''t Melumadei Milchama, Sefer
Hadar Itmar etc etc) forbade the celebration of Valentines day over 30
years ago and has not recinded his psak.

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 
Subject: Re: Valentine's Day

My posting, to which I think R. Wise is responding, did not question
whether Rav Rabinovitch fobade the celebration. As summarized by Frank
above, it questioned whether the quoted explanation of the psak, if
correctly reported ((Rav Rabinovitch forbade) Valentines day as the
worst form of Avoda Zara), was guzma / rhetoric or actual statement of
halacha / psak. If it was, as implied / stated by R. Wise, it asked for
an explanantion of that psak and the implications of the psak. I do not
see any response from R. Wise to that.

Avi Feldblum


End of Volume 51 Issue 46