Volume 51 Number 71
Produced: Sun Mar 26 10:09:45 EST 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan (4)
[Chana Luntz, Ira L. Jacobson, Shmuel Himelstein, Chana Luntz]
Kitzur (2)
[SBA, Nathan Lamm]
Minyan and not openly religious people
[Ira L. Jacobson]
Public Shabbat Desecration
[Michael Perl]
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From: Chana Luntz <chana@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:45:58 -0000
Subject: RE: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan
While I discussed Rav Moshe's position in a previous posting, R' Ira
Jacobson asked another question:
> I was looking for a statement from R' Moshe to the effect that a
> mehallel shabbat may or may not be counted in a minyan for tefilla
> betzibbur.
...
> Does any other poseq?
Here are at least a couple (as brought by Rav Ovadiah Yosef in Yabiat
Omer, chelek 7, Orech Chaim, siman 15, in si'if 6) who deal with the
question specifically - the Melamed Haoyel (Orech chayim siman 29)
writes that "the minhag in Ashkenaz and in Hungry is to be lenient and
to include (meztaref) a mechallel shabbas b'farhesia to a minyan ... And
also the Baal shoel u'meshiv says that "in the lands of America one does
not posul mechallei shabbas b'farhesia from being included in the minyan
...""
Rav Ovadiah Yosef in that teshuva is actually discussing the
permissibility of allowing a mechalel shabbas cohen to duchen [give the
cohanic blessing]. As is his want, he he brings three pages of
quotations, in this case 99% of which permit a mechalel shabbas
b'farhesia cohen to duchen (mostly based upon the tinuk shenishba [the
child taken into captivity] argument, but also upon various other
reasons). However, as he is quoting, and the prohibition issue is the
same, he throws in these two quotes as well, which gives you the
specific statements that you want.
Of course, if you are prepared to understand that permitting a mechalel
shabbas b'farhesia cohen to duchan is based on the same reasoning as
permitting a mechalel shabbas b'farhesia to be counted in a minyan, then
that same teshuva of Rav Ovadiah provides around three pages of
quotations, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi, 99% of whom permit (including
Rav Moshe and the Chazon Ish, but by no means limited to them).
Rav Ovadiah also has an earlier teshuva in Yabiat Omer chelek 1, Yoreh
Deah siman 11 where the question he was asked was whether one could
drink the wine touched by a mechalel shabbas b'farhesia so as not to
embarress the mechallel shabbas b'farhesia. As this is an earlier
teshuva, he brings even more sources (the later one cross references the
earlier one for the basics) which goes for eight and a half pages of
quotations (although some of those are setting the scene and explaining
the background). For those who are curious, the bottom line is that one
could be lenient in this regard. Go learn how he gets there and why!
Regards
Chana
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 11:08:49 +0200
Subject: RE: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan
At 22:45 20/03/2006 +0000, Chana Luntz stated the following:
Rav Ovadiah Yosef in that teshuva is actually discussing the
permissibility of allowing a mechalel shabbas cohen to duchen
[give the cohanic blessing]. As is his want, he he brings three
pages of quotations, in this case 99% of which permit a mechalel
shabbas b'farhesia cohen to duchen (mostly based upon the tinuk
shenishba [the child taken into captivity] argument, but also upon
various other reasons). However, as he is quoting, and the
prohibition issue is the same, he throws in these two quotes as
well, which gives you the specific statements that you want.
Of course, if you are prepared to understand that permitting a
mechalel shabbas b'farhesia cohen to duchan is based on the same
reasoning as permitting a mechalel shabbas b'farhesia to be
counted in a minyan, . . .
What the good rav **concludes** there, after we have studied all his
masa umatan, is that he allows the Kohen mehallel Shabbat to **join
other kohanim** in blessing us, but if he is the **only** Kohen, we
convince him to go out, so that there will be no blessing by any Kohen.
(I would point out--to the best of my knowledge--that the commandment
for Kohanim to bless is de'oraita if there are at least two Kohanim (Ko
tevarKHU), but only derabbanan in the case of a single Kohen.)
This is entirely in keeping with another pesaq of his, as I have pointed
out previously. Rav Ovadia Yosef recommends that if a mehallel Shabbat
is reciting qaddish, then a "kosher person" should recite it along with
him.
In other words, he permits such a person to participate with others, but
not to bless or recite qaddish by himself. The parallel conclusion, if
we may indeed extrapolate, is that a mehallel Shabbat may indeed
participate in the minyan, provided that there are at least 10 "kosher
persons" besides him. Otherwise, the conclusion of Iggerot Moshe, Orah
Hayyim (Part I), Siman 23, which offers the very limited possibility in
sh`at hadehaq only (without the event being regarded as tefilla
betzibbur), seems indeed to be in accordance with Rav Ovadia's shitta.
Does that give a hint as to his position when the going gets rough?
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:40:51 +0200
Subject: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan
It's all well and good to debate the question about whether one does or
does not count a Mechalel Shabbat in a Minyan - if one lives in Boro
Park or Williamsburg.
What is one to say if he finds himself in a small town, where he has
been appointed as the rabbi? Is he to Daven by himself? Or should he not
have taken the position because of the stricture? And if so, what is to
happen to the handful of Jews in that area? Leave them to their own
(often woefully inadequate) resouces? Or "hope" that a rabbi of one of
the other streams of Judaism should become their spiritual leader?
To me, this is the heart of this entire discussion.
Shmuel Himelstein
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From: Chana Luntz <chana@...>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 19:33:46 -0000
Subject: Re: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan
> > Firstly minyan is d'rabbanan, so safek d'rabanan l'kula [for a
> > rabbinical requirement we rule leniently].
>
> I was under the impression that the need of a minyan for a
> dvar shebikdushah was based on the gezeirah shavah chain
> "tokh tokh, eidah eidah" from the ten meraglim, in which case
> it has the status of d'oraita as if it were written
> explicitly in the Torah. Perhaps Chana can explain.
> Martin Stern
Its an asmachta b'alma. [Sorry Avi, I know you like unfamilar
Hebrew/Aramaic terms to be translated, but I think I am stumped with
asmachta - what should I say, text brought by the Rabbis to which they
cross refer their rulings but which is not actually a Torah derivation?
I am sure somebody can do better than that!] [One of these days, I'll
collect a good glossery of all these terms, but for now, the above is
a pretty good explanation, but I suspect we will have people send in
some alternate explanations. Avi]
Anyhow, as the Ran eplains (fourth perek of Megilla s"d "a'n nose'in es
kapahen pachos m'asarah") -after bringing the reference to the gezeira
shava toch toch to which you refer above he explains "and all of these
are an asmachta of the Rabbis because the seder of tephila itself is
d'rabbanan".
Interestingly though, the most explicit statement I am aware of that
indeed minyan is d'rabbanan is found in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah
(hilchos avadim) siman 267 si'if 79): "It is permitted to free [a slave]
for a dvar mitzvah even m'divreihem [ie d'rabbanan] like if there is not
10 in the synagogue one can free his slave and thereby complete the
count of ten".
Shavuah tov
Chana
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From: SBA <areivim@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 02:44:13 +1100
Subject: Kitzur
> From: Nathan Lamm <>
> Author David Klinghoffer compares the Kitzur to the Manhattan White
> Pages, where the Metropolitan Opera is listed right next to
> Metropolitan Dry Cleaners. .., but not the book to go through to get a
> good overall view of Judaism.
With the greatest respect to Mr Klinghoffer, "Lo mipiv anu chaim". And
since when has be become such a recognised Torah authority that he can
advise Yidden which sifrei haposkim are acceptable and which not??
> Add to that the well-known issue that R' Ganzfried, great as he was,
> reflects a certain point of view of Judaism and halakha (most notably
> and infamously in terms of sexual relations, but in other areas as
> well) which is certainly not mainstream.
Can you show us where RSG 'invented' any of his own rulings? Every
single word is either from earlier poskim or Chazal [even the "infamous
sexual relations matters"].
> This is one reason we don't pasken according to him;
I would say that for 99% of his sefer we [Ashkenazi Jews] DO pasken
according to him. And I am sure that there are many who do so 100%.
> he was an Acharon, and we, still living in the era of Acharonim, have
> a vast range of works and authorities to choose from. Indeed, the
> authors of certain works, no matter how great, have been criticized
> for certain slight missteps: R' Ganzfried or the Alter Rebbe, for
> example, are cited for calling their books "Shulchan Aruch" or
> variants (indeed, the latter's work is simply printed with that as a
> title, no qualifier), as if they somehow had the authority of that
> work. Similarly, the Chofetz Chaim was criticized for printing the
> Mishna Berurah alongside the Shulchan Aruch, as if his work was the
> final word of halacha. Again, great as these works and authors were,
> no work published in the over 400 years since the Shulchan Aruch and
> Nosei Kelim has achieved any similar level of acceptance.
You're kidding, right?
You have in foul swoop dismissed 3 of the most accepted and popular
sifrei psak of the past century or 2. Amazing!
So what do you do when you want to know the halacha? You check out the
Beth Yosef, Rambam or go back to the Gemara? Or you go the other way
and check out the latest collection at your local bookstore?
> SBA writes that "The entire KSA, OTOH, can be studied- even by younger
> students in 12-18 months, giving one a grounding in the entire 4
> chelkei Shulchan Aruch." > I find this statement somewhat ironic,
> considering that the Shulchan Aruch itself was written (as an
> abridgement of the Beit Yosef) to be studied completely in thirty
> days. It can still be done, leaving aside the Nosei Kelim, of course.
I am unsure why this is ironic. Yes, one can do that too, but KSA has
the advantage of a few hundred years of added material and psak.
SBA
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:31:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Kitzur
--- SBA <areivim@...> wrote:
> With the greatest respect to Mr Klinghoffer, "Lo mipiv anu chaim".
> And since when has be become such a recognised Torah authority that he
> can advise Yidden which sifrei haposkim are acceptable and which not??
I was merely quoting his line. Of course he's not a posek. (I left out
the rest of his lines about the Kitzur, which, while more informative
and quoting actual rabbanim, would probably be quite a bit more
inflammatory to champions of R' Gnazfried and his work.)
> I would say that for 99% of his sefer we [Ashkenazi Jews] DO pasken
> according to him. And I am sure that there are many who do so 100%.
I imagine Ashkenazim pasken according to the Mechaber well over 90% of
the time, and yet the Ramah is usually seen as "governing"
Ashkenazim. The "devil" (l'havdil) is in the 1%-10%.
> You're kidding, right?
> You have in foul swoop dismissed 3 of the most accepted and popular
> sifrei psak of the past century or 2. Amazing!
I certainly hope you meant "fell" swoop. In any event, of course I don't
dismiss them, as my next comment will show.
> So what do you do when you want to know the halacha? You check out
> the Beth Yosef, Rambam or go back to the Gemara? Or you go the other
> way and check out the latest collection at your local bookstore?
Nice. I turn to the Mishna Berurah, to the Aruch HaShulchan, to various
other, more recent poskim- or to the Kitzur! I'm afraid you're missing
my whole point here. Of *course* the Kitzur is valuable in learning what
the halacha is. It just isn't neccesarily the leading authority in
halakha or hashkafa.
> I am unsure why this is ironic. Yes, one can do that too, but KSA has
> the advantage of a few hundred years of added material and psak.
By "ironic" I mean "somewhat amusing" or the like. Of course we
generally don't turn to the Mechaber today. I just found it an
interesting historical point that one sefer after another is written to
be the "final" and "concise" and "accessible" Code for all Jews, and
each one has grown larger, been superceded, and, alas, less
accessible. I'm not trying to make any point, or even complaining-
that's the nature of the process.
Nachum Lamm
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:11:52 +0200
Subject: Re: Minyan and not openly religious people
Daniel Walker stated in mail-Jewish Vol. 51 #65 Digest:
we should be guided by the principle that the Halacha is like the
later authorities who have both studied earlier opinions and
applied it to the present situation. To that end I would like to
paraphrase R' SHZ Aurbach quoted in Ishei Yisroel p138 note 52,
(my translation)
"it is better if possible to pray in a place where there is a
Minyan of observant people however in case of necessity
The note is tacked on to a paragraph that states that one must not count
a mehalel Shabbat in a minyan. The note is chock full of references,
which I would recommend to someone who has about two days free to study
all the references.
But from the author's summary of the viewpoints, it is apparent that
using such a person as the tenth is only in sh`at hadehaq.
Further, he brings Yalqut Yosef, where Harav `Ovadiah states that if a
mehalel shabbat recites qaddish (and not necessarily where there is no
minyan without him), a "kosher person" ought to recite the qaddish along
with him. (Which is what I observed in a Sefardi minyan I used to pray
in, at work.)
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Michael Perl <michael_perl9@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:24:12 -0500
Subject: RE: Public Shabbat Desecration
Once again, it is a great pleasure reading Chana's pieces. One question:
Rav Moshe forbade being yotzei a reform or conservative rabbi's berachot
but he also paskens that no one can be mechalel shabbat befarhesia
anymore. So, is this more of a political response of the time or is
there something I am missing?
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End of Volume 51 Issue 71