Volume 51 Number 78
                    Produced: Tue Mar 28  6:36:37 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

delayed remarriage "to be expected"?
         [Leah S. Gordon]
Dialects vs. mispronunciation (4)
         [Mark Symons, David Mescheloff, Orrin Tilevitz, Avi Feldblum]
Dunkin Donuts
         [David Mescheloff]
Jastrow on-line
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Monetary Duress
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
Neturei Karta
         [Martin Stern]
Portable Eiruv for Camping (5)
         [Tzvi Stein, Martin Stern, Andy Goldfinger, Jeff Secunda, Arie]
Selling Chametz
         [Mark Symons]
Tsiduk hadin
         [Perets Mett]
When you should say a Mitzvah has a Reason!
         [Russell J Hendel]
Yotzer Or Uvoreh Choshech (2)
         [<chips@...>, Arie]


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:50:25 -0800
Subject: delayed remarriage "to be expected"?

>Annette Goldman, she should live and be well, remained unmarried for
>many years afterwards, as is to be expected of a single mother of
>underage children, but she eventually remarried.  I do not know whether
>she married a Cohen.


Why in the world would it "be expected" that she remain unmarried??  It
seems that someone waiting anxiously for a divorce would want to remarry
relatively quickly (assuming she found someone she liked).



From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:55:39 +1100
Subject: Dialects vs. mispronunciation

> Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...> wrote
> I once knew a baal tefilah who, Instead of "Hashem oz le-amo yitein"
> (the Lord will give His people strength), or even "Hashem oiz le'amo
> yitein" (translation unclear), would invariably say "Hashem eiz le-amo
> yitein" (the Lord will give His people a goat).

Wouldn't he have said "Hashem eiz le-amei yitein"?


From: David Mescheloff <david_mescheloff@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 04:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dialects vs. mispronunciation

I am always struck by those chazzanim who say, on Friday night,
"beini u-vein bnei yisroel, osee (or oisee, it doesn't matter) l'olam".
The way the phrasing (punctuation) comes out, to my ears it sounds like
they're proclaiming proudly that they forever stand in the way between
G-d and the children of Israel.


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 06:56:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dialects vs. mispronunciation

In response to my posting Mark Symons asked:
<Wouldn't he have said "Hashem eiz le-amei yitein"?>

the funny thing is, I don't recall that he did.  But even if he did, it's

I think there are three categories of dialect "mispronunciation":

(1) when the mispronunciation doesn't really change the meaning
(2) when it results in seeming nonsense (hi eleikainee, hi avini)
(3) when it results in a change a meaning, to possibly blasphemous or
comic effect (oz-eiz; the discussion of harat-haras).

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006
Subject: Dialects vs. mispronunciation

I think it is incorrect to describe "dialect" differences in the
consistent pronunciation of hebrew letters / vowels as
"mispronunciation". I see it as having little more value than the fun
childrens song that uses hebrew words that phonetically sound like
English words (he is she and who is he). In all of the three cases
above, you are taking a consistent method of pronouncing hebrew, and
then interpreting the words in a different consistent method of
pronouncing Hebrew. Almost by definition, you will get the three
groupings you describe above.

I think the focus should be on mispronunciations within the groups
"dialect". There are two hebrew words, one is (in my pronunciation)
"hodo" and the other is "hodu". Both of these words are found in the
morning tefillah in different locations. These two words have different
meanings. If you switch them around (as long as in your "dialect" they
have distinguishable differences), then you have changed the meaning of
the tefillah. Another type of case is where the pause in a sentance is
placed. If you place it in the incorrect location, you can either have a
pretty meaningless sentance, or at times the best fit to the pausing
gives rise to a meaning very different from what the author had in
mind. Here the standard tune for Anim Z'mirot comes to mind, in
particular the verse of "Tikar, shiras rush".



From: David Mescheloff <david_mescheloff@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dunkin Donuts

As a follow-up to the recent discussion of kashruth supervision in chain
stores in general, and in Dunkin Donuts in particular, here is a quote
from the Chicago Rabbinical Council's "Kosher Consumer" bulletin that I
received today:

"Due to kashrus violations, the Dunkin Donuts store located at 3900 W.
Dempster, Skokie, Il, is no longer under the supervision of the cRc.  The
Dunkin Donuts located at 3132 W. Devon, Chicago, is not affected and
remains under the supervision of the cRc."

Best wishes for a Chodesh Tov!


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:15:13 +0200
Subject: Jastrow on-line


has the classic full, scanned Jastrow Aramaic-English (Talmudic) dictionary
(not searchable, though).

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:24:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Monetary Duress

From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
> Conceptually I am bringing up the issue of monetary duress (Which is not
> recognized by halachah.

Monetary duress is recognized by halachah ... but only when it rises to
the level of saving a life (e.g. pikuach nefesh).

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:29:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Neturei Karta

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:28:45 EST <Smwise3@...> wrote:

> Whether anyone wants to acknowledge that the Neturei Karta has
> support, does anyone believe that Hakadosh Baruch Hu would condone
> advocating destructing of the state that would inevitbaly result in
> the death of Jews? The picture of these NK's rep meeting with Iran and
> supporting them sickened me.

Their behaviour in so doing is utterly reprehensible and is AFAIK
condemned even by the Satmarers but this does not mean that their
underlying theology is not a possible one based on Talmudic sources. It
was to the contrast between the vehement condemnation of this handful of
'crackpots' and the relative toleration of the leftist anti-Zionists
that my original letter to the Jerusalem Post was meant to draw
attention. The latter do far more harm not only to Israel but to the
position of Jews everywhere.

Martin Stern


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:07:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Portable Eiruv for Camping

Just so that you are aware... a friend told me that he once made an
eiruv while camping and the rangers discovered it on Shabbos morning and
insisted he take it down, saying it was a danger to wildlife.  I imagine
that would be a quite difficult situation, so you may want to consider
how to avoid that.  I'm not sure what the solution to this is (getting
prior permission ... ?).

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:52:42 +0000
Subject: Portable Eiruv for Camping

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:36:16 EST <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver) wrote:
> If you want to go for a hike on shabbat, you can twice as far if, before
> shabbat, you hang some food from a tree, within 2000 amot, in each of
> the cardinal directions (north-south, and east-west) of where you are
> camping, and in the direction you want to hike, and establish your
> tachum shabbat around that point. Then you can hike up to 2000 amot, in
> each cardinal direction, beyond that point.

This is completely INCORRECT. One can only use one of the eiruvei
techumin and then only if one said when setting each of the four up that
it would only be an eiruv if it is decided on shabbat that it and none
of the others is one. Without such a condition one becomes a 'chamar
gamal' and cannot go anywhere outside the enclosed area of one's camp.

Also hanging it on a tree makes it inaccessible on Shabbat (mishtameish
be'ilan) and invalidates the eiruv. What Mike presumably meant was that
it should be left UNDER a tree (or some other convenient safe place).

Martin Stern

From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:57:26 -0500
Subject: Portable Eiruv for Camping

I think this matter needs some clarification.  I have attempted to learn
mesechta Eruvin with little success, but there is much discussion of the
pre positioning of "potential" eruvin in this manner.  That is --
putting one eruv in the East and another in the West before Shabbos with
the idea of using one (but not both, since only one "sheves" is
permitted) on Shabbos itself.  As I say, I have had trouble
understanding the gemara related to this, but in any case I do not know
the Halacha L'Maaseh (practical law) as it is decided today.  Can
someone help with this?

-- Andy Goldfinger

From: Jeff Secunda <jsecunda@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:15:54 GMT
Subject: Portable Eiruv for Camping

Eli Adler asked:

>This summer I hope to take the family camping in the Canadian Rockies
>in a motorhome.  How can I setup a quick simple but kosher eiruv for
>the immediate camping area.  What materials to prepare etc...

A simple materials solution: collapsible aluminum tent poles, with a
hole drilled through the top to allow the sting to pass directly over
the pole. The poles can be lashed to trees for support. Make sure the
bottom of the pole is within a tefach of the ground and the string is
high enough so that it doesn't decapitate other campers or animals.

Jeff Secunda

From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:16:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Portable Eiruv for Camping

i believe (and so i recall from having learned eruvin recently), that
you cannot extend your techum in all directions at the same time, but
rather must choose one direction.



From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:11:11 +1100
Subject: Selling Chametz

The general way of selling one's chametz is to give one's rabbi
power-of-attorney to do so. But is there a suitably worded form
available that would allow one to sell directly to a non-jew eg your

If this is regarded as too halachically complex for a lay-person to do,
then surely it is no more complex than the concept of chametz,
especially the "chametz that tends to adhere to the surface of pots"
etc, which I imagine would have to be explained to the non-jew buying
the chametz from the rabbi.

Mark Symons


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:42:39 +0100
Subject: Tsiduk hadin

David Neuman wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a minhag to say Tzedek Hadin before
> closing the grave? or before the casket is lowered into the grave?

The general minhag in England is for the mito to be placed in a hall,
usually at the entrance to the cemetery, where tsiduk hadin is said
before proceeding to the graveside.

The (Ashkenazi) custom in Yerusholayim is to start tsiduk hadin when the
grave is filled in.

Perets Mett


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:44:30 -0500
Subject: When you should say a Mitzvah has a Reason!

Rav Hirsch in his 100 page essay explains that some commandments are
symbolic. How do we know! Because the Torah explicitly calls them
symbolic (e.g. Tefillin, Brith, Shabbos) or explicitly tells me that God
wants me to think of the symbols(e.g. When I wear Tzitzith I **should**
remember other commandments). I think the injunction here is that when
doing a symbolic commandment like Tefillin I should understand the
reason as that enriches the commandment. Similarly when doing a social
commandment like charity I should know the reason (it enhances

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 20:46:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: Yotzer Or Uvoreh Choshech

> I wanted to get people's feedback on whether or not one should say the
> Bracha of "Yotzer Or Uvoreh Choshech" out loud ?? yes or no?? and why or
> why not?

What drives me nuts is why it is said out loud on Shabos/YomTov but not


From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 00:31:18 +0200
Subject: Re: Yotzer Or Uvoreh Choshech

the Ram"oh on O"H 59/4 says you should say birkat yotzer quickly
(implying, i guess, also quietly) to finish it before the shat"z so that
you can answer amen to his b'racha (implying, i guess, that the shat"z
says it out loud).

two comments
 - in my experience, most sh'lichei tzibbur do NOT say it out loud;
 - my family minhag is to wait for the shat"z to say the b'racha, answer
amen, and then say the b'racha. my friends humor me when they daven for
the amud and say the b'racha out loud, knowing i'm waiting to say amen.



End of Volume 51 Issue 78