Volume 52 Number 13
                    Produced: Tue Jun 13  5:29:45 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artificial Meat
         [David Ziants]
Meat grown in the lab
         [Dr. Josh Backon]
Metzitzah Be-Peh
         [Harry Zelcer]
Post - Kaddeyshim
         [Lawrence Kobrin]
Saving Jewish Souls
         [Stu Pilichowski]
Women & Kaddish
         [Jeffrey Saks]
    [Women] saying kaddish
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Women saying kaddish
         [Martin Stern]
Women saying Kaddish - clarification
         [Ira L. Jacobson]


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:09:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Artificial Meat

A Rav told me that we can be lenient concerning "blood spots" in eggs
that come from battery farms. Most eggs in my locale, that are purchased
in a shop, are of this type. For example. it is enough to remove the
spot and it is not necessary to throw out the whole egg. I guess
(without knowing for certain so someone please correct me if I am wrong)
the rationale is that it is not a real halachic blood spot because the
egg has to be natural for this. On the other hand, one still does not
want to eat what looks like blood.

I don't know the technical details of battery farms, except the eggs are
grown artificially and without a mother.

Could such eggs have any bearing on the subject of this artificial meat?

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Dr. Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:14:30
Subject: Meat grown in the lab

David Brotsky had a question on the halachic status of "artificial" meat
grown in the lab.

The question: is this meat in the halachic category of BASAR?  

IMHO, no. See: Bechorot 7b; Chullin 79b; SHACH on Yoreh Deah 83 s"k
28. [However, see my comments below why it still wouldn't be permitted]

Even in a worst scenario, it wouldn't even be a BEN PEKUAH (dead or live
embryo under 8 months of age in a shechted cow, or dead embryo over 9
months in a shechted cow) that doesn't require shechita. Even with
regard to mixing the meat of a BEN PEKUAH with milk there is a
disagreement of opinion:

a) "tzarich iyun" (needs further examination) [R. Akiva Eiger] 
b) Only due to SAFEK (doubt) may it be forbidden (Meshivat Nefesh YD] 
c) Nodah B'Yehuda: prohibited 

Nor would it be Ever min HeChai (like blood) [See: Aruch Hashulchan YD
369 #10].

The only possible reason why this "meat" would still not be permitted is
due to the halachic status of LO PLOOG (we don't differentiate this from
a similar situation]

Take the case of the *ben pekuah* which is a live embryo found in a
shechted cow. Although according to Torah law this animal when grown
doesn't require schechita (Yoreh Deah 13:2) the rabbis prohibited this
and even in the case of mating a male *ben pekuah* with a female *ben
pekuah* (YD 13:4) the offspring of which wouldn't have the halachic
category of meat according to Toraitic law.

BTW a more intriguing possibility would be a *ben pekuah* found in a
*chaya* (deer, or other kosher wild animal YD 87:3). Eating a CHAYA with
milk is only a rabbinic prohibition. But if one could mate a male ben
pekuah of a chaya with a female ben pekuah of a chaya, the offspring
wouldn't even be prohibited rabbinically (as meat) especially if this
"meat" were then fried in butter made from deer milk and cooked by solar

But kids, don't try this at home  :-)

Josh Backon


From: Harry Zelcer <reliablehealth@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:38:54 -0400
Subject: Metzitzah Be-Peh

Before calling a mohel you may want to read the Hakirah article,
"Mezizah be-Peh - Therapeutic Touch or Hippocratic Vestige"
at www.Hakirah.org/Volume 3.htm

Best wishes.
Heshey Zelcer


From: Lawrence Kobrin <kobrinl@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:48:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Post - Kaddeyshim

Dov Bloom (in 52:12) points out the inconsistency of the general rule
against overdoing the saying of Kaddish (by men or women) with the
actual practice in most shuels.  Moreover, in the same way, no one seems
to note the thorough "ceremonialization" of kaddish d'rabonon.  Designed
as a response to learning, as its text indicates, for the most part it
is said only after the most formalized "learning," as where we mumble
through the 13 Midot in the morning, or the routine of a 30 second dvar
halacha at the end of davening in the morning, but rarely said after
legitimate learning of some subject, as where there is a talk on some
halachic subject.  In fact, I have seen a gabbai pointedly refrain from
starting the rabbonon kaddish where he did not think the delivery worthy
of it.

Larry Kobrin


From: Stu Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:52:53 +0000
Subject: Saving Jewish Souls

> Chaye Netzach helps thousands of Jews who pass away without leaving
> behind them anybody to care for the elevation of their souls (no Kaddish
> and nothing like this): 30 seconds a day can save a Jewish soul! What we
> ask from our more than 3000 volunteers is to do at least one Mitzvah
> every day (one chapter of Tehillim, Torah study, a coin to Tzedakkah,
> etc.) during 12 months for the elevation of the soul of one deceased
> person who needs our help. This is a 100% free service.

Please clarify for me (seriously): I sin during my lifetime and when I'm
dead and gone, I can still be "saved?"

This has, obviously, tremendous ramifications.

How does this work? The same question of course applies to kaddish.

Also, what does it mean to be "mezakeh" somebody?


Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel


From: Jeffrey Saks <jeffreysaks@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 00:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Women & Kaddish

As often happens in any discussion of women's recitation of mourner's
kaddish, mention is made of Rav Aaron Soloveichik zt"l's opinion. While,
in fact, he does rule leniently in the matter, his rationale is almost
never cited.

His position appears in the final sentence of a Siman 32 (p. 100) of his
small volume on Hilkhot Aveilut, "Od Yisrael Yosef Bni Chai" (113 pages;
lomdus on aveilut, not halakhah le-maaseh, per se). The book was
published through Yeshivas Brisk in Chicago in memory of Rav Aaron's
grandson z"l. Since it is not widely available, I scanned the page
relevant to our discussion. It is available as a PDF from:

He first makes mention of Teshuvat Chavat Yair (#242) who writes that in
the case of an unwed daughter with no brothers, "me-ikkar ha-din" she
could say kaddish for a parent (because there are no sons or sons-in-law
to do it), but this should not be done because it will "weaken Minhagei

Rav Aaron adds (my translation, see original): "It seems that nowadays
since some Jewish men and women are fighting for equality of women and
men regarding aliyot for women, therefore if Orthodox rabbis will
prevent women from reciting kaddish, [and this will lead] to the
possible increase in the impact/influence of Conservative and Reform
rabbis, it is therefore prohibited to prevent the woman from reciting

Now, personally, I believe women can/should say kaddish, and the most
reasonable solution (as suggested by many on-list) is that some man also
be reciting kaddish so that no one--on either side of the mechitza,
including the mourner herself--should feel uncomfortable. However, in
fairness to Rav Aaron zt"l, this is an example of the importance of not
severing the bottom-line psak from the halakhic rationale. It is not
fair, accurate, or honest to turn him into the champion of women's
liberation or egalitarianism (I'm exaggerating, but only slightly).
Furthermore, it seems to me, that a woman who wants to rely on his
lenient opinion, is entitled to know WHY he ruled thus. It's plausible
that she would decide NOT to rely on his opinion if she knew WHY he was
mattir--"What!" she might very well say to herself, "Does anyone suspect
my halakhic coimmitment to be so flimsy that I'd start davening in the
Reforn Temple were I not allowed to say kaddish?!"

If one wants a lenient opinion, there are others on whom to rely (as was
mentioned in other postings). One can also, obviously, rely on Rav
Aaron's bottom line. It's just essential that we not pervert his overall
position and turn him into something he was not.

Rabbi Jeffrey Saks


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:46:06 +0300
Subject: Re: [Women] saying kaddish

Dov Bloom asked:
>  Have you never heard a kaddish after Pitun HaQtoret,a Kaddish after
>aleinu, a Kaddish after An'im Zemirot (adendum of a few psukin so you
>can justify another kaddish),

I often wonder about that.  First, one needs at least three pesuqim to
justify qaddish, and Shir Hakavod (to call it by its name) ends with
only two.  But even worse, many shuls drop the first of the two and then
recite qaddish after a single passuq.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:50:08 +0100
Subject: Re: Women saying kaddish

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 00:50:10 +0300, Dov Bloom <dovb@...> wrote:
> In Vol 52 #09 Mr. Stern, whose posts I usually enjoy, alluded that
> "Saying any more [kadishim] might come under the problem of marbei
> kaddeishim."  I am not aware of such a halachic problem existing, and
> the places where I daven never heard of this.

This is one of the differences between the Western and eastern Ashkenazi
traditions. In the Western one, the number of kaddeishim said is
minimised, in the Eastern it tends to maximised. Perhaps the former is
based, apart from a wish to avoid being marbei kaddeishim, on a fear
that 'familiarity breeds contempt'. The latter is probably based on the
idea that each kaddish helps raise the deceased a bit more from
Gehennom. However it might be worth pondering whether this latter is
really a show of respect since saying more than the minimum might imply
one considers one's parent particularly wicked in needing so much help!

> Have you never heard a kaddish after Pitun HaQtoret, a Kaddish after
> aleinu, a Kaddish after An'im Zemirot (adendum of a few psukin so you
> can justify another kaddish), a shir shel yom (kaddish) Barchi Nafshi
> on Rosh Hodesh (and one more kaddish..) .

There definitely should NOT be a kaddish between shir shel yom and
barkhi nafshi on Rosh Hodesh since it is questionable which should be
said and we only say both to be yotsei all opinions.

> It does seem a bit too much but is common practice many places I have
> seen, perhaps not so in Martin's UK.

We obviously come from different traditions. Vive la difference!

> Then after maariv we have a short shiur (sometimes 5 minutes) followed
> by Rabbi Chananya ben Akashya omer ..... then another kaddish. Then
> after the daf yomi - another kaddish...Puk Hazei.

I suppose it is justifiable if one really learns, not like in some
circles where a mishnah is gabbled off purely to allow yet another
kaddish. Ugh!

Martin Stern


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:49:21 +0300
Subject: Re: Women saying Kaddish - clarification

Carl A. Singer <casinger@...> stated:

>I'm not sure what others envision by women saying kaddish.  To me, it
>is somewhat analagous to those shuls where only one man says kaddish
>(for all aveilim) and the other stand and may recite to themselves
>subvocally.  Again, my concern is that if no men are aveilim then the
>kaddish (either recited by one man or many) is skipped.

First of all, I understand that one must recite qaddish at least loud
enough that the crowd can hear it and respond.

Regarding skipping qaddish, my understanding is that the qaddish after
`Aleinu leshabe`ah **needs to be** recited according only to the Rema
and no other poseq.  Does anyone else hold that way?



End of Volume 52 Issue 13