Volume 52 Number 21
                    Produced: Tue Jun 20 22:02:09 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ashtei Asar
         [Jack Stroh]
Battery Farms and Eggs
         [Mark Goldin]
Change, Halacha and Women etc.
         [Batya Medad]
Hashkama Minyan (2)
         [Yerachmiel Askotzky, Freda B Birnbaum]
Kedusha to Yerushalyim Shel Zahav (2)
         [Akiva Miller, Batya Medad]
Question About Logic and Eternity
The Rokeach's Piyut
         [Baruch C. Cohen]
Role of Women
         [Mark Goldin]
Women again...
         [Stuart Feldhamer]
Women and Kaddish
         [Mark Goldin]
Women Saying Kaddish (2)
         [Martin Stern, Carl A. Singer]


From: Jack Stroh <jackstroh@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:32:16 -0400
Subject: Ashtei Asar

I am trying to find out what is the linguistic and interpretive
differences between "acahad asar" and "ashtei asar" in the Torah. I know
that ashtei asar is an archaic form of the number but I would like to
understand better why the Torah uses one and why the other. Thanks.

Jack Stroh


From: Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:15:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Battery Farms and Eggs

From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
>>Before I give a new shopping instruction to my beloved wife (which she
>>would likely ignore), perhaps Mark can illuminate us on the source of
>>his knowledge regarding the putative suffering of chickens. Are we
>>compelled to anthropomorphize all animals by some "Disney model" of
>>animal life, or is there some objective research on the matter? And if
>>the former, might it not be possible to construct a model wherein the
>>animals are actually happier being focused on their strictly-confined
>>roles without having to face the vicissitudes and struggles of the "real
>>world"? Might this be the poultry equivalent of the kolel life?

I would be happy to.  There is ample evidence of animal suffering inside
the factory farming system, and I have studied the subject reasonably
well.  Battery hens lead a particularly miserable life.  There are many
books and online articles on the subject, but for a quick overview take
a look at http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_chickens_egg.asp if you
are interested.

This is one area where I have some first hand experience as I worked in
a "lul" on Kibbutz Chafetz Chayim many years ago.

Mark Goldin
Los Angeles


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:11:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Change, Halacha and Women etc.

Sorry if someone else used the example I'm going to give.

I remember learning a "mishne" (was it?) that if the shofrot of the Beit
HaMikdash were to be found, it would be forbidden to use them, because
we must use the ones of today.

Simply, halachah evolves, mitzvot don't.  Please differentiate.  When I
was first in Israel as a student (aborted year at Machon Greenberg,
1969), we spent our first few weeks in some school building in Ein
Kerem.  We were there for Shabbat and had to find a place to doven.  Of
course as naive Americans we had been hoping that it would be possible
to walk to the hospital's fancy shul, but when we checked we were told
that it wasn't used on Shabbat, and we had no idea of how far it was
from the villiage/neighborhood.  We ended up dovening in a quaint little
Sfaradi shul.  The Ezrat nashim was a couch by the door.  It wasn't the
custom for women to doven there.  It wasn't forbidden, just not the
custom.  Just like it's not forbidden for a female to say Kaddish, just
not the custom.  And it's not forbidden for females to learn all night,
it just isn't the custom in all communities, but it's a growing custom,
and many communities have shiurim for both men and women.  Torah-based
halachot are developing to institutionalize the new realities.



From: Yerachmiel Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:54:13 +0200
Subject: Hashkama Minyan

One halachic advantage of the Hashkama minyan is that one fulfills the
zman kriyas shma of the Magen Avraham. Here in Israel many are makpid on
his zman [perhaps most in the yeshivish circles] (there are a few
opinions what how to calculate his zman) and therefore begin davening
around 7:15- 7:45 and some shuls starting time changes throughout the
year as the zman changes.

In addition, by finishing davening earlier one is able to eat the seudah
before chatzos unlike the typical minyan that begins at 8:30-9.00 in
which people don't usually get home until around 1pm plus in the winter
many finish their meals late in the afternoon with only a short break
until mincha and seudat shlishit and are unable to properly eat the 3rd

Kol tuv,

Yerachmiel Askotzky

From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hashkama Minyan

In V52N20, Tzvi Stein writes:

> I remember hearing a story from the early part of the 20th century,
> where a certain rabbi forbade the Shabbos hashkama minyan, since
> people were using it as a way to go to shul on Shabbos, then go to
> work.  The rabbi felt that the presence of the minyan was being
> interpreted as an implicit "stamp of approval" for this behavior.

I get the point of this, but the other side of that coin is, these guys
felt that they HAD to go to work (our generation is a LOT more
privileged than theirs), and at least they wanted to daven first.  I
expect that they get some credit for that.  They maintained a framework
where their children understood that you were supposed to go to shul on
Shabbos.  Suppose the guys hadn't gone at all?

I find that often the opposition to the hashkama minyan has to do with
the perception (sometimes reality) that it's taking guys away from the
regular minyan where their presence may be needed to make up the minyan.

Freda Birnbaum


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:47:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Kedusha to Yerushalyim Shel Zahav

David I. Cohen wrote <<< After the war, Naomi Shemer re-wrote the last
verse to reflect the actual return to Yerushalayim ("chazarnu el borot
hamayim" etc.) >>> and many other posters made the same point.

The version of the story I had heard is that a concert had been
scheduled for a certain date (I guess June 8 or 9) on which the Old City
had already been captured, but the war was NOT YET over. Despite the war
not being over, the mood of the country was such that her concert went
on as scheduled. Of course she sang YSZ, but then she shooshed the
audience and added the revised stanza. No one had been expecting it, and
they just went wild over it.

Has anyone else heard this story?

Akiva Miller

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:18:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Kedusha to Yerushalyim Shel Zahav

Yes, everyone's right about the song/words pre-dating the 6 Days War,
but the tune, if I'm not mistaken has a more complex history.  If I'm
not mistaken, it was discovered that it was composed years before by
somebody else.  There's a similar story about parts of Hatikvah, too.



From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:50:30 EDT
Subject: Re: Question About Logic and Eternity

how about Hermann Cohen's The Religion of Reason or Ellis Rivkin The
Shaping of Jewish History. Both should be read as well.


From: <azqbng@...> (Baruch C. Cohen)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 14:32:54 -0400
Subject: The Rokeach's Piyut

One of the German Rishonim Reb Elazar of Worms "The Rokeach" wrote a
Piyut about his wife Maras Dolce and his two daughters (Beilat and
Chana) who were all savagely murdered on Erev Shabbos Parshas Vayeishev
in their home. The Rokeach's Piyut was styled after Aishes Chayil, and
was printed in Rabbeinu Elazar of Worms by Rabbi Yehutiel Ariel
Kamelhar, pg 17-20. I don't have this sefer and am looking to find this
Piyut and hopefully with an English translation.

Baruch C. Cohen. Esq.
Los Angeles, CA


From: Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Role of Women

Shoshana L. Boublil
>>My mother-in-law has an oral tradition going back thousands of years,
>>mother to daugther on all kinds of halachot and homelife traditions, but
>>when I asked her why she didn't teach us, her daughters and
>>daughters-in-law she says that the impression she got was that "it
>>wasn't important"!!! (compare this with the lack of tradition in areas
>>that were devestated by the Holocaust).

I find this paragraph hard to understand.  If your MIL has such a
tradition going back "thousands of years" surely she would understand
the value inherent in that tradition of passing it along?  How does she
think it was passed down to her in the first place?


From: Stuart Feldhamer <Stuart.Feldhamer@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 14:23:37 -0400
Subject: RE: Women again...

> From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
> That reminds me of the question (strange in some circles; 
> better known in others) of where is it forbidden for the 
> hazzan to hold a white cat by the tail, in his right hand, 
> when he is intoning Kol Nidre.
> Vehamevin yavin.

I don't think it's Kavod to the shul to bring in an animal without a
good reason, especially one who is probably yowling as it's hanging
upside down. It also sounds like some kind of pagan ritual from the way
you described it.

Now why shouldn't women say Tikkun Leil Shavuot?



From: Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Women and Kaddish

>>Women certainly may choose to recite kaddish as part of the grieving
>>process and indeed, as has been pointed out in some posts, may do so as
>>persons regardless of whether or not a male is also reciting kaddish. I
>>recited kaddish for each of my parents, a"h, as well as for my sister,
>>a"h, and know many women who have done the same.

The subject of kaddish is very relevant to me right now, as I am in my
year of saying kaddish.  My mother passed away on R"H, and at the
funeral I was a little taken aback to hear my sister saying kaddish
quietly along with me, as we hadn't discussed it.  She also said kaddish
during shiva.  I have not asked her what she would have done if she had
been an only child, and she is certainly not saying kaddish in shul
every day, relying on me to do so.

For me anyway, it is only now that I am saying kaddish that I understand
its full significance and value.  Everything that has been written here
over the past several days is true.  It is of great comfort, it
presumably has that intercessionary power in shamayim, and I think most
importantly, it ensures you leave the house and get back into the
community.  Someone used the term "binds you to the community" and I
think that is very well put.  Not only the kaddish, but the custom of
insisting that the mourner lead the davening strengthens the ties to the
community and has a generally positive effect on the mourner's life.  I
have seen this with my own life, and now that I am aware, also with the
lives on many others who have gone before me.

The mourning practices in Judaism are truly wonderful, logical &
healing, and an example to the other nations.

Mark Goldin
Los Angeles


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:35:58 +0100
Subject: Re: Women Saying Kaddish

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:52:32 +0000 (GMT), <casinger@...> (Carl A.
Singer) wrote:

> Let's try to simplify the points under discussion:
> 1 - what do we mean by women saying kaddish
> ......         
>         b - in a shul where only one person recites for all of the
> morners

Carl keeps repeating this assertion that in a shul where only one person
recites each kaddish he does so on behalf of all of the mourners. This
is simply not true. He recites it as his obligation. They simply do not
say it at all since their obligation is pushed aside by his halachic
precedence.  This was the original minhag Ashkenaz which was preserved
in many shuls of German origin.

Martin Stern

From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:21:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Women Saying Kaddish

I rarely disagree with Martin, but this is one of those rare occasions.

There are several legitimate variant minhagim of how kaddish is said in
various shuls.

These include:
1 - each man says kaddish in place, individually and somewhat (hopefully)
in unison.
2 - all who are saying kaddish gather together near the aron and recite
in unison
3 -  one person among the various mourners is designated to say kaddish
for all.

I believe our disagreement is whether in case #3 that one person is
reciting only for himself or for himself as well as all of the others.
I assert that it's the latter - - otherwise those individuals not chosen
(i.e, all but the "one") would not be meeting their individual

Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.
Passaic, NJ  07055-5328

[At this point, as far as I can tell, both Martin and Carl have asserted
their positions. Any further response would seem to me to require one or
both to bring sources in support of their position. The logical
arguements for the two positions appear to have been presented
already. Update, there has been a bit more of the exchange and I think
it is worthwhile to allow it to continue into next issue, but I think we
are close to complete, unless people bring actual sources. Mod]


End of Volume 52 Issue 21