Volume 52 Number 23
                    Produced: Wed Jun 21  6:10:38 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals during the Nine Days
         [Art Werschulz]
Bahai Faith
         [Lena Horwitz]
Dagesh and Trop
         [Michael Poppers]
Jewish Blogs
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Kaddish and German Minhag (2)
         [Carl Singer, Martin Stern]
Melody of Hatikvah (2)
         [Ken Bloom, Robert Israel]
Men going to Hashakam minyan
         [Eitan Fiorino]
Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?
Yerushalyim shel Zahav & Hatikva
         [Leah Perl]


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:10:59 -0400
Subject: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

Hi all.

I will probably be attending the ICIAM '07 conference in Zurich, which
lasts from Monday 16 July 2007 through Friday 20 July 2007.  It turns
out that 16 July is 1 Av.

Is it possible to order a non-meat kosher airline meal from most
airlines?  If not, how do people handle this kind of situation?

Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: agw STRUDEL cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7050, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: <lh2166@...> (Lena Horwitz)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:07:59 -0400
Subject: Bahai Faith

I recently visited the Bahai Gardens in Haifa and I was wondering
what the Jewish approach to their religion would be.  They seem to
be monotheists who support moral conduct.  They do not believe in
religious idols, nor do they even display pictures of their
religious leaders. However, they do accept all previous prophets
including Jesus and I believe Mohamed too. Would it be appropriate
to visit their gardens or their temple- which is just a building
with the remains of one of the leaders of the faith- or support the
religion monetarily or otherwise?

Lena Horwitz


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:22:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Dagesh and Trop

In mail-jewish Vol. 52 #20 Digest, Orrin Tilevitz asked:
> ....is there inherent sanctity to the dagesh [qal]? That
> is, if the minhag is to ignore the printed taamim which break a phrase
> up, and instead sing a verse in a way as to create a phrase, do these
> letters properly lose the dagesh when they're pronounced? The question
> arises in parshat Behaalotecha, in the beginning of chamishi, where the
> (or a) custom is to read some of the verses with the tune from the shirat
> hayam. If you do and pronunciation follows the way you sing it,
> for example "matei be-nei yisachar" would become "matei ve-nei yisachar".
> What to do?

However old the ta'amai hamiqra are (for two relevant posts, see
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v19/mj_v19i02.html#CM), one would
think that any tune used for those t'omim would have to work within
their phraseology. In other words, fit the tune to the phrases, not vice
versa, and never "ignore the printed taamim which break a phrase up, and
instead sing a verse in a way as to create a phrase."

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:42:00 EDT
Subject: Jewish Blogs

I a very interested in hearing the perspective of members of this list
have toward Jewish blogs and what role they feel it may play in the
future of Orthodox Judaism.

Chaim Shapiro


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:42:10 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Kaddish and German Minhag

I certainly did not mean to imply that I was a decisor of halacha for
the German community.  However, I'm still unclear re: the line (in this
case) between halacha and minhag.

If, for example, a member of the German community were to find himself
in a shul where all mourners come to the front and recite kaddish in
unison, would he participate - that is move to the front of the shul
with the other mourners (I'm not trying to cloud this with minhag
haMakom issues.)  give that there was someone else saying kaddish.

Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.
Passaic, NJ  07055-5328

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:30:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Kaddish and German Minhag

This is an interesting problem. The custom where all mourners come to
the front and recite kaddish in unison was accepted in many "German"
communities where there were routinely more aveilim than available
kaddeishim. Personally I would join the others in such
circumstances. However in the more usual situation where the aveilim all
say kaddish in their own places at different speeds, making it virtually
impossible for anyone to hear a particular one to be able to answer
'Amein, yehei shemeih rabba', I would be inclined not to say kaddish at
all but, rather, try to listen to one of those saying it and answer
them. After all, the whole point of saying kaddish is to evoke the
congregational response and where this is not really possible there is
little point in saying it at all.

      Martin Stern


From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:41:21 -0500
Subject: Melody of Hatikvah

Batya Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote:
> Yes, everyone's right about the song/words pre-dating the 6 Days War,
> but the tune, if I'm not mistaken has a more complex history. If I'm
> not mistaken, it was discovered that it was composed years before by
> somebody else. There's a similar story about parts of Hatikvah, too.

The melody of Hatikvah is very similar to themes found in the Moldau by 
Bed'ich Smetana.

See http://archive.chazzanut.com/hanashir/msg00152.html
> Soon thereafter, a new melody emerged in Rishon LeZion, the melody
> Jews all over will probably be singing on Independence Day. Where did
> it come from?  Some trace it to "The Bohemian Symphony," by the Czech
> composer Smetana, but others say it is based on the Sephardic melody
> for Psalm 117 in the Hallel service. Still others say it bears a
> striking resemblance to a Romanian folk song.

--Ken Bloom

From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Melody of Hatikvah

In the case of Hatikvah, see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatikvah>:
   The music for Hatikva is based on a folk song of unknown origin. The
   earliest known appearance in print was early 17th century Italy as "The
   Dance of Mantua". It has also been recognized in Spanish religious music
   as the Catholic song "Virgen de la Cueva" ("Virgin of the Cave") and the
   Jewish song "Prayer for the Dew". It's also recognizable as the Polish
   folk song "Pod Krakowem".

   The folk song was also used by an English-Jewish cantor named Meier Leon,
   who used the stage name Michael Leoni to perform secular and Christian
   music such as Handel's Messiah. Leon adapted the song into the Jewish hymn
   Yigdal for his synagogue. This hymn was later adapted by Welselyan
   minister Thomas Oliver into the hymn To The God of Abraham Praise.

   Bedrich Smetana likely adapted the melody from a Swedish version of the
   melody, "Ack, Varmeland" and used it for his symphonic poem "The Moldau",
   part of Ma Vlast. This later became a Czech folk song, "Kocka leze

   The modern adaptation of the music for Hatikvah was probably composed by
   Samuel Cohen in 1888. It's possible that he took the melody from Smetana's
   work, that he got the melody from a Romanian version of the folk song,
   "Carul cu boi" ("Carriage with Oxen"), or from the Hungarian arrangement
   "Tuzed, Uram Jezus" ("Your fire, my Lord Jesus").

For a free legal download of Smetana's "Moldau", see e.g.

The bottom line is, composers of "classical" music borrowed themes all
the time.  This sort of thing tends to become an occasion for lawsuits
in "popular" music.

Robert Israel             <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel 
University of British Columbia            Vancouver, BC, Canada


From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:02:10 -0400
Subject: RE: Men going to Hashakam minyan

I have heard asserted from someone I consider a reliable source that
early shabbat minyanim started in America in the first half of the 20th
century to allow people to go to work after tefilah.  I wonder if anyone
can confirm this.

In Teaneck NJ in my experience it is fairly common among families with
children too young to be brought to shul for one spouse to attend
hashkama and the other to attent a later minyan.


[I have forwarded the question to one source that I think has done
significant research in early 20th century / late 19th centure American
jewish history, Dr. Jeffrey Gurock for either a written reference or
summary. If I hear back, I will post his reply to the list. Mod.]


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 00:58:07 +1000
Subject: Re: Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?

I received this off-list from one of our chevra.  I am not sure if he
wishes to identify himself here, so I'll leave that to him.

My reply may or may not answer some of the points made
by posters on my earlier piece. Vehabocher Yivchar.


I do not know of an explicit source requiring women to stay up learning
on Shavuot night but since they are part of the covenental community of
Israel and were also present and received the Torah (ko tomar leveit
yaakov - see rashi) I can see no reason to exempt them.

Rabbi X


I suppose my views are a bit old fashioned - (as they also are re the
women saying kaddish discussion).

The hard fact is that one will rarely find a female FFB Charedi seeking
such extracurricular religious activities.


Obviously because it smells of modernism/reform/feminism etc which isn't
exactly accepted in that community.

And do you think the women [and the men supporting them] would be so
pleased to see that whilst Chazal say [and so paskened in Shulchan
Aruch] that a women may be called up to the Torah [and lein], they
immediately add that they shouldn't - because of 'kvod hatzibur'.  I
think kaddish is a similar situation.

As for studying all night Shevuos, it is with much difficulty that
rabbonim allow girls to study Torah in Beth Yaakov etc mainly because of
Chazal's concerns of 'ke'ilu lomdo tiflus'.  But they obviously
permitted it as a horo'as sha'ah and eis laasos laHashem.  But to mak a
chiyuv of limud haTorah on the level of men was never the intention.

OTOH, I presume most of those ladies clamouring for these recent
innovations are mainly not from Charedi/FFB background and obviously 'al
titosh toras imecho' is not relevant or an issue here.  I thought I made
it quite clear in my posts that I was not addressing that group.

Maybe what we should be asking, is, how far will MO rabbis and their
communities allow this to go?

What do you tell a woman who has just lost her father and says that it
will help her emotionally etc if she can come to shul and don his tallis
and tefilin?

I can already hear the many replies of 'Why not?"



From: Leah Perl <leahperl@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:19:46 -0400
Subject: Yerushalyim shel Zahav & Hatikva

> Yes, everyone's right about the song/words pre-dating the 6 Days War,
> but the tune, if I'm not mistaken has a more complex history.  If I'm
> not mistaken, it was discovered that it was composed years before by
> somebody else.  There's a similar story about parts of Hatikvah, too.

Hatikva is to the tune of Smetana's Moldau -- a hymn to HIS homeland.
YSZ I just read about on jpost -- apparantly its an old Basque lullaby. 
There's a link to it at French amazon.com if you want to hear the
original song in Basque.  http://tinyurl.com/evjb6



End of Volume 52 Issue 23