Volume 52 Number 25
                    Produced: Fri Jun 23  6:10:43 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals during the Nine Days
         [Janice Gelb]
"had" to go to work on Shabbos
         [Tzvi Stein]
Hashkama Minyan
         [Heshy Summer]
Jewish Blogs...oops
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [Rabbi Wenger]
Kaddish - adding verses
Melody of Hatikvah
         [Wendy Baker]
Men going to Hashakam minyan
         [Gershon Dubin]
Midreshet Midtown - NEW DATE - Thursday June 29
         [Susan B Hornstein]
Obligation to Learn Torah
Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
"tircha d'tzibbur" comparison
         [Leah S. Gordon]
"We" and "They"
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Wikipedia reliability
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Women and Torah Study
         [Joel Rich]


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

Art Werschulz <agw@...> wrote:
> Is it possible to order a non-meat kosher airline meal from most
> airlines?  If not, how do people handle this kind of situation?

I don't think they usually offer kosher dairy meals. 
However, would a fruit plate do?

-- Janice


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:30:35 -0400
Subject: "had" to go to work on Shabbos

> From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
> In V52N20, Tzvi Stein writes:
> > I remember hearing a story from the early part of the 20th century,
> > where a certain rabbi forbade the Shabbos hashkama minyan, since
> > people were using it as a way to go to shul on Shabbos, then go to
> > work.  The rabbi felt that the presence of the minyan was being
> > interpreted as an implicit "stamp of approval" for this behavior.
> I get the point of this, but the other side of that coin is, these guys
> felt that they HAD to go to work (our generation is a LOT more
> privileged than theirs), and at least they wanted to daven first.  I
> expect that they get some credit for that.  They maintained a framework
> where their children understood that you were supposed to go to shul on
> Shabbos.  Suppose the guys hadn't gone at all?

I can't judge them, but the rabbis of the time seemed to feel that this
"have to work on Shabbos" attitude was feeding on itself and seriously
undermining Shabbos observance. The fact remains that with all the
people who "had to work" there were still plenty of people who did *not*
work on Shabbos, including many with large families, and as far as a I
know, there is no record of Shabbos observance causing any of them to

Also, of all those people who "had to work", one would think that if
Shabbos was really important to them, they would be spending much of
their free time moving heaven and earth to find a way to get into a job
or profession that would enable them to keep Shabbos.  I would be
curious to know if a significant number of them were making any serious
efforts in that direction.


From: Heshy Summer <hhandls@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:25:20 +0200
Subject: Hashkama Minyan

My own preference for davening at the early minyan has mainly to do with
escaping the noisy chatter in the "main" minyan.  As can be witnessed in
many places, people often come to shul primarily to socialize rather
than pray.

Heshy Summer


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:55:49 EDT
Subject: Jewish Blogs...oops

My apologies.  I accidentally sent an unedited version of my post about
Jewish Blogging.  The correct post should have read:

I am very interested in hearing the perspective of members of this list
toward Jewish blogs, and what role, if any, they feel they may play in
the future of Orthodox Judaism.

Chaim Shapiro


From: Rabbi Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:09:56 -0400
Subject: Kaddish

One who wants to have a good understanding of the Kaddish, i.e. its
origin, benefits, children saying it vis a vis hiring others, meaning,
priorities, etc. etc. should check up volume 1 of Gesher Hachaim by
Rabbi Yechiel Michel Tuchashinsky, chapter 30. He devotes 22 pages to
this topic.


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 23:37:43 +1000
Subject: Kaddish - adding verses

From: Martin Stern <>
 Jack Gross <jbgross@...> wrote:
> Edot hamizrach add verses that speak of G'd's *name* (Yehi
> shem...; Uvaruch shem kevodo) before certain instances of Kaddish.

This was also the minhag of the German ashkenazim but only in kaddish
titkabal (see e.g. Baer, Avodat Yisrael p. 130)

> 3 verses were added in Kaddish Tiskabel and until some years ago most
> siddurim had it - and quite a few people actually said it [lav davka
> Yekkes].

I wonder why it all stopped?
But also what was the source for adding those pesukim?



From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:34:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Melody of Hatikvah

> The melody of Hatikvah is very similar to themes found in the Moldau by
> Bed'ich Smetana.
> --Ken Bloom

>From what I understand both compositions are based on the the same Czech
folk tune.

Wendy Baker


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:29:04 -0400
Subject: Men going to Hashakam minyan

From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>

> I have heard asserted from someone I consider a reliable source that
> early shabbat minyanim started in America in the first half of the
> 20th century to allow people to go to work after tefilah.  I wonder if
> anyone can confirm this.

One anecdote + one anecdote do not equal a history, but I remember my
uncle telling me this some years ago (as a "Yankee" who is now in his
mid 80's and from a Shomer Shabbos family even back then, his
recollection seems pretty accurate).

He remembered that many of those people, in the summer months, made sure
to be back in shul for Mincha.



From: Susan B Hornstein <hornstei@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:05:55 -0400
Subject: Midreshet Midtown - NEW DATE - Thursday June 29

Enrich your work week with the Torah of Yeshiva University!
  12:30 - 1:15 pm
  NEW DATE - Thursday, June 29    
  Mrs. Shoshana Schechter
  Associate Professor, Bible, Stern College for Women
  Sy Syms School of Business - Stern College for Women
  215 Lexington Avenue (corner E. 33rd St.)&#8226; Room 718
  Israel Henry Beren Campus
  Dessert will be served

Center for the Jewish Future; www.yu.edu/cjf
         Yeshiva University
Dr. Susan B. Hornstein
Director, Beren Campus Programming, Center for the Jewish Future
Yeshiva University


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 23:41:21 +1000
Subject: Obligation to Learn Torah

From: Carl A. Singer <>
>> When a rabbi is asked by a woman: "I am used to studying, but now that
>> I'm married and a mother I don't have the time and I miss it" and the
>> rabbi responds "well, what do you expect, you are now a wife and
>> mother".  It just makes it clear that the rabbi has no understanding,
>> and apparently no interest in understanding the problems facing women
>> nowadays.
>When a rabbi is asked by a MAN: "I am used to studying, but now that I'm
>married and a FATHER I don't have the time and I miss it" and the rabbi
>responds "well, what do you expect, you are now a HUSBAND and BREAD
>The difference being the implied obligation for the man to (continue)

Of course. Men have a chiyuv of 'vehogiso bo yomom volaylo'.
AFAIK, women don't.



From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?

In MJ v52n23, "SBA" (Shlomo Abeles as I know him from other lists) quotes 
a friend:

> I do not know of an explicit source requiring women to stay up learning 
> on Shavuot night but since they are part of the covenental community of 
> Israel and were also present and received the Torah (ko tomar leveit 
> yaakov - see rashi) I can see no reason to exempt them.

Wow, radical: women are part of the covenantal community!  What a
concept!  May your friend live long and prosper!

Would that some of the oppositional folks here would get it that not
every woman who wants to do something that makes our haredi brethren
uncomfortable is out to disrespect their version of the religion: maybe
they just think they are part of that covenantal community.

SBA, NOT his friend:

> What do you tell a woman who has just lost her father and says that it 
> will help her emotionally etc if she can come to shul and don his tallis 
> and tefilin?
> I can already hear the many replies of 'Why not?"

Have you EVER met such a woman who wanted to do any such thing?

Freda Birnbaum,
who understands better every day why so many women just want to pack it 
all in


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0700
Subject: "tircha d'tzibbur" comparison

I find myself puzzled about the confluence on M.J of both:

1. The opinion that an extra kaddish (time: 30 seconds?) may be a delay
for the congregation

2. The opinion that a whole re-do of a bar mitzvah boy's haftorah (in
case of twins) would not be worthy of comment as a delay for the

--Leah S. R. Gordon


From: <himels@...> (Shmuel Himelstein)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:25:57 +0300
Subject: "We" and "They"

I was at a religious elementary school graduation in Jerusalem last
night, and one of the guest speakers contrasted "us" (the religious) and
"them" (the non-religious), relying on a report that in a certain
non-religious school the graduating students released a bunch of mice in
the school.

This type of comment bothers me no end. It implies that "we" have all
the values and "they" have no moral values. Someone should remind such
speakers of how many prisoners there are in Israeli prisons who will
only eat Mehadrin food ...

This goes back to the famous (apocryphal?) story about David Ben-Gurion
and either the Brisker or the Chazon Ish, where the latter said that in
a question of which way to act, we must follow the law that says on a
narrow bridge a person with a full cart takes precedence. The
implication was that only "we" have a "full cart" of values, and "they"
have none.

It is this same attitude which governs all too many of "our" religious
people in their treatment of the Arabs. Somehow, there are those among
us who believe that "we" are the Lords and Masters of the Land, and as
such can use any methods - no matter how odious or even illegal, and
certainly totally immoral - in order to gain possession of another house
in the Old City or in Hebron - forging documents, use strong-arm
tactics, etc. How very sad that this is done in the name of

I'm almost tempted to revise the words of a famous song to "Look what
they've done to my religion."

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:47:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wikipedia reliability

In MJ v52n23, Wikipedia is quoted, re Yigdal:

> The folk song was also used by an English-Jewish cantor named Meier 
> Leon, who used the stage name Michael Leoni to perform secular and 
> Christian music such as Handel's Messiah. Leon adapted the song into the 
> Jewish hymn Yigdal for his synagogue. This hymn was later adapted by 
> Welselyan minister Thomas Oliver into the hymn To The God of Abraham 
> Praise.

Clearly that's a typo for "Wesleyan", i.e. Methodist.

This is correct to the best of my knowledge (I've heard that hymn sung
to our tune for Yigdal), but a warning: Wikipedia is not a final
authority.  I've seen stuff on there in fields where I have enough
knowledge to know that the stuff was in error.  It's true that
eventually it may be corrected, but I would regard Wikipedia as a
starting point at best.

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:10:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Women and Torah Study

> As for studying all night Shevuos, it is with much difficulty that
> rabbonim allow girls to study Torah in Beth Yaakov etc mainly because of
> Chazal's concerns of 'ke'ilu lomdo tiflus'.  But they obviously
> permitted it as a horo'as sha'ah and eis laasos laHashem.

So now that we have an educated generation of Bais Yaakov women who can
transmit the mimetic mesorah as they did up to 100 years ago, which as I
understand it was the turning point that allowed the horaat shaah,
shouldn't the horrat shaah be reversed?

joel rich


End of Volume 52 Issue 25