Volume 52 Number 29
                    Produced: Mon Jun 26  6:11:32 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals during the Nine Days (4)
         [Carl Singer, Perets Mett, Batya Medad, Aliza Berger]
Kosher Airline Meals
         [Tzvi Stein]
Loshon Hara about Goalei ha'Aretz?
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Meat grown in the lab
         [Sammy Finkelman]
Sephardic womens' custom of preparing Korban Minchah
         [Sammy Finkelman]
"We" and "They" (3)
         [Heshy, Ira L. Jacobson, SBA]


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:09:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

Here's one rule of thumb -- if you rely exclusively on airline meals
when you fly, you will often go hungry.  (Excluding El Al, etc.)  They
(the airport caterers) all too frequently make mistakes, especially with
"special" meals.  You're one of a 1000 meals that get distributed, etc.
-- Fortunately that's why we have (a) peanut butter and (b) hard salami.
-- but not together :)

Re: fruit plates and vegetarian meals -- you're on your own re: their
kashruth (utensils, kaylim, ingredients, etc.) -- investigate / pasken?


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:14:38 +0100
Subject: Re: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

Airlines out of London offer Kosher dairy and/or fish meals (a whole
year round). After all, there are passengers who do not eat meat.

Maybe airlines at other airports need to get their act together.

Perets Mett

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:16:36 +0200
Subject: re: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

There's generally a choice of fish instead.  I remember getting annoyed
during my 25 vegetarian years, when on Continental they offered either
"fleishig" or fish, no vegetarian.  Last year on the El Al night flight
to NY I ordered fruit, and it was perfect at 2am.  The downside was that
breakfast was also fruit, but considering the time state-side, I was
able to have breakfast after landing.

http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/ ; http://me-ander.blogspot.com/          
http://samizdatblogfree.blogspot.com/ ; http://shilohpics.blogspot.com/ 

From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:54:24 +0200
Subject: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

Once, flying El Al during the Nine Days, we got a meal labeled "fish"
that actually was chicken. So not only the regular airlines have
difficulty with this.

Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:02:43 -0400
Subject: Kosher Airline Meals

When I see a situation like this by "business hat" pops up in full brim.
Here we are an organized community with a common problem that can be
simply stated... "kosher travel", meaning "rubber meats the road
travel", not "resort travel".  The non-Jewish world evolved profitable
systems to address the needs of travelers (inns, restaurants, rental
cars).  But when it comes to airline travel, these needs are not being
adequately met even in the non-Jewish world.  surely someone can come up
with a way to make money from this and at the same time supply kosher
food to airline travelers and road warriors everywhere.


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:45:16 +0300
Subject: Loshon Hara about Goalei ha'Aretz?

On 23 Jun 2006 at 6:10,Shmuel Himelstein wrote:

> It is this same attitude which governs all too many of "our" religious
> people in their treatment of the Arabs. Somehow, there are those among
> us who believe that "we" are the Lords and Masters of the Land, and as
> such can use any methods - no matter how odious or even illegal, and
> certainly totally immoral - in order to gain possession of another
> house in the Old City or in Hebron - forging documents, use strong-arm
> tactics, etc.  How very sad that this is done in the name of
> "Yiddishkeit."

I really was very surprised at this post.

As far as I can remember, every time the Jews of the Old City or Hevron
manage, at huge expense and considerable risk, to redeem a house from
the Arabs (the vast majority of which were originally Jewish homes
stolen after murdering or evicting the owners), and the Israeli left
rises up with similar accusations, they have always turned out to be
baseless. (Either in court, or before ever getting there).

I would like to know if the claims made here have any basis outside of
the slanted media?  The whole paragraph looked to me like lashon hara`.

Shabbat Shalom,
Disclaimer: I regularly contribute to 'El Ir David' and 
             'Mechadshei ha'Yishuv h`'Yehudi be-Hevron'


From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 06 12:16:00 -0400
Subject: Meat grown in the lab

> The question: is this meat in the halachic category of BASAR

Actually, it migt perhaps be consided Basar, but it wouldn't be meat in
the sense of what can't be mixed with milk.

The word Basar can apply also to fish - Bamidbar 11:4-5 and 13 (the word
basar used also by Moshe) and 22. You see that fish gets included in
this category - although some commentators on the Chumash do not thin so
(because probably they are thinking of the Halachahs of eating and some
talmudic phraseology) and they give explanations in line with the idea
of the word "basar" not inclusing fish.

Now what's prohibited, first of all, if met through which blood once
flowed. A part of the animal where that didn't happen, such as the
bones, would actually I think be kosher to eat with milk - providded
that it was Kosher animal, and for many parts, slaughtered.

Blood is the key prohibition for when Shechitah is needed (Shechitah is
needed, among other reasons, to get rid of the blood, although I don't
knowq the source for that opinion. Blood is an important indicator
indicator - that's why the Halachahs of an egg involve blood.

As for mixing meat and milk - it's got to have been alive - in an
animal, not bvegetable, sense.

The meat in the lab described ghere is some sort of a vegetation, most
similiar to a mushroom.

I don't think it would taste the same as meat from an animal. Why wew
know that meat from animals that have been fed different foods tastes

Could this exist? Well, we now have cultures of cancerous cells - they
have to be cancerous or they will not outlast the Hayflick limit. So is
that Kosher?

I think there could alse be some questions about the starting material.
This would probably have to be analalyzed - and then therte is also the
wporry about safety. Just what is this?


From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 06 12:01:00 -0400
Subject: Sephardic womens' custom of preparing Korban Minchah

Subject should be: Sephardic Women's custom of preparing something like
a Korban Minchah - but it was too long to send from this place.

From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>

SB> For example, there is a tradition (that has probably evolved over time)
SB> of preparing on Rosh Chodesh Elul and Rosh Chodesh Nissan a special
SB> dish, made up of wheat, spices and oil.  It is reminicent and a reminder
SB> of the Korban Minha (Solet Belulah BaShemen) but it's made in such a way
SB> that it cannot be a korban.  It is also prepared when entering a new
SB> house and on other occasions.

Actually, if they wanted to offer an actual Korban Minchah, it would be
possible (at least if any obstacle involving Tumah could be overcome)

I say this because there is a responsa from the court of Ezra and
nehemiah, or rather their immediate or almost immediate successors
(whoever was there in about 411 BCE I think it was) that was sent to the
Jews of a place in Egypt - I think it might be Elephantine - it is not
where 250 years later or so there was later a Temple of Onias- where
they asked if they could offer Korbanos.

Now there is very clear Posuk and it is well known that you can't, and
they wrote back and told them, but they told them they could offer a
Korban Minchah. And this responsa was buried a couple of years later,
after Egypt regained its independence from Persia and the community was
overrun (Egypt lost it's independence again about 9 years before
Alexander the Great conquered it - Persia was under the rule of the
third Artaxerxes then, so again there was an Ahashverosh who ruled from
Hodu to Kush but the second one did not) and the original of the
responsa was discovered maybe a little more than a century ago now, and
it's now in the Brooklyn Museum, a short distance from the Lubavicher
World Headquarters (or was in the 1960s, when this was mentioned and at
least summarized in a book - I don't think it was completely

But pretty much nobody knows about it.

And now thinking about it (I haven't seen this responsa myself) I think
you can bring proof from a Posuk that this is correct because if you'll
notice in Devorim 12:11, the first {Posuk in Sheni in Parshas Re'eh, the
Korban Minchah is misisng from the list of those Korbanos that have to
be brought at the place where God Almighty will choose to let his name
rest there.

So it makes a lot of sense that Sephardi women would have prepared
something like a Korban Minchah (and not other Korbanos) And what could
have changed over time, is they made it clearer and clearer that this
was not an actual Korban - but it may have started out that way,
especially in the first few centuries after the destruction when they
still had the ashes from the Parah Adumah, if I am correct.

(The ashes could be diluted, so you'd only need a little bit of it,
mixed in with a much larger quantity of other material2

I guess this was on Rosh Chodesh because first, they couldn't do this
all that often, and second Rosh Chodesh is a kind of women's holiday -
taken more seriously as a holy day by women than by men and also often
free from other duties - and third, both of these days are close to a
major holiday when people would most want to be in the Beis HaMikdosh -
without being a holiday itself - and a holiday, of course, would
interfere with this and not leave the extra time.

Those two days would be Pesach and Yom Kippur. On Pesach for the Korban
Pesach and on Yom Kippur for the Avodah. For Yom Kippur you wouldn't use
Rosh Hashonah as the day for the minchah in memory of the Beis HaMikdosh
but you'd have to go back to the beginning of Elul.

I guess the idea for doing this when entering a new house, might be as a
substitute for a Korban Todah.

What would be interesting to know is in just what geoographical area
this started and how many people did it. The Jewish community in Eretz
Yisroel lasted, as a major community, longer than many people once
thought, but they eventually almost all got converted by the Karaites
and were not recovered, and then most of those people were forcibly
converted or worse during the Crusades, so taht the Ramban found very
few Jews there, and traditions could only have been maintained some
place else.

I saw the book in the 1980s but it was published quite some time before.
It's called "Documents from Old Testament Times." D. Winton Thomas,
editor.  Published by Harper and Row.

The Brooklyn Museum is actually a mile away from 770 Eastern Parkway. I
haven't followed any of this up. Maybe somebody will want to research
this further.


From: Heshy <hhandls@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:07:18 +0200
Subject: RE: "We" and "They"

> It is this same attitude which governs all too many of "our" religious
> people in their treatment of the Arabs. Somehow, there are those among us
> who believe that "we" are the Lords and Masters of the Land, and as such can
> use any methods - no matter how odious or even illegal, and certainly
> totally immoral - in order to gain possession of another house in the Old
> City or in Hebron - forging documents, use strong-arm tactics, etc. How very
> sad that this is done in the name of "Yiddishkeit."
> I'm almost tempted to revise the words of a famous song to "Look what
> they've done to my religion."

And it is the same arrogant attitude that seeks to indict others without
the benefit of facts.  In at least the Hebron case it is far from clear
that any documents were forged in gaining possession of a home.

Isn't there a different forum for political discussions?

Heshy Summer

From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:49:26 +0300
Subject: Re: "We" and "They"

This is what happens when one is exposed to the anti-religious
anti-settler press and accepts their proclamations as truth.  In fact,
the so-called forged documents are authentic.  In some cases they are
not revealed because doing so might result in the Arab sellers or their
agents meeting an untimely death at the hands of other Arabs.

IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:40:24 +1000
Subject: "We" and "They"

You have any doubt that "we" have FAR more moral values than "them"?

>Someone should remind such speakers of how many prisoners there are in
>Israeli prisons who will only eat Mehadrin food ...

So how many are there??  50, 100, 200?  On a per capita basis it is
almost zero.

And in any case not too bad when talking about a total prison population
of 13,600.

>the famous (apocryphal?) story about David Ben-Gurion and either the
>Brisker or the Chazon Ish,

the CI

>in a question of which way to act, we must follow the law that says on
>a narrow bridge a person with a full cart takes precedence. The
>implication was that only "we" have a "full cart" of values, and "they"
>have none.

Jewish values. Correct.  (They were - after all - talking about life in
Eretz Yisroel - the Holy Land .)



End of Volume 52 Issue 29