Volume 52 Number 39
Produced: Wed Jul 5 6:13:53 EDT 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Bais Yaakov
[Joel Rich]
Bais Yaakov?
[SBA]
Baruch Dayin Emet
[Shani Thon]
Change, Halacha and Women etc.
[SBA]
Changing Minhagim
[Steven Oppenheimer]
Kaddish After Aleinu (2)
[Nathan Lamm, Gershon Dubin]
Kaddish and German Minhag
[Mark and Anne Goldin]
Minhagim
[Carl Singer]
Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?
[SBA]
Women and Torah Study
[Bernard Raab]
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Bais Yaakov
>Joel Rich wrote:
>> See http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/schenirer.html
>> (Jewish Observer article) - seems like no psak/reason was given to
>> allow this earthshaking change other than bracha vhatzklacha from the
>> Belzer Rebbe???????
>
>"The renowned Rabbi Meier Shapiro - then Rav in Glina, later Rav and
>Rosh Yeshivah in Lublin - visited her school, which had grown to 280
>students. He was so impressed that he immediately suggested that she
>organize a seminary. "
>
>Not just a psak, but an instruction to open a seminary.
>
>PM
WADR this psak was after visiting a fully operating school. My point was
that school was opened apparently without a psak or daat torah opinion
to change the longstanding practice.
KT
Joel Rich
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From: <areivim@...> (SBA)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:03:59 +1000
Subject: Bais Yaakov?
From: Joel Rich
> See http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/schenirer.html (Jewish
> Observer article) - seems like no psak/reason was given to allow this
> earthshaking change other than bracha vhatzklacha from the Belzer
> Rebbe???????
I doubt that that story reflects the Belzer rebbe's attitude. AFAIK he
was one of those who strongly opposed teaching girls Torah. Your link
shows his approval to teaching yahadus - which is not the same as
teaching Mishna, Chumash with Rashi etc.
These days many have changed their attitudes - including Viznitz-Monsey
where some years ago they began learning Chumash [Rashi?] with girls.
Satmar and many of its satellites still don't, but they place a strong
emphasis on halacha.
SBA
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From: Shani Thon <shani716@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:33:11 +0200
Subject: Baruch Dayin Emet
Baruch Dayan Emet
It is with a very heavy heart to post the untimely death yesterday
of Rina Tamar (Spiegelman) Sheinfeld of Tzufim Israel. Rina was from NYC
and Josh is from Chicago, having made aliyah 17 years ago to
Tzufim. Shiva is being observed in Tzufim until Thurs at 09-767-6136 (
add international access codes as appropriate).
Shani Thon
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From: <areivim@...> (SBA)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:28:20 +1000
Subject: Re: Change, Halacha and Women etc.
> From: Nathan Lamm
> Batya Medad recounts an incident when she visited a beit knesset with no
> women's section. Prof. Jonathan Sarna, in his recent book on American
> Judaism, points out that attendance of women in shul in many communities
> was very rare, period, until relatively recently. He claims that to a
> certain extent, shuls began building women's sections under the
> influence of American Protestantism ("The family that prays together"
> and all) in the early 1700's.
Shul's in 'der alter heim' mostly had an Ezras Nashim, but AFAIK women
only attended on important shabbosim and yomtovim.
Our shul, which is based on Central European nusach, for instance, never
has women attending any evening tefilos except for Kol Nidrei, and
Simchas Torah [and of course listening to megilla].
There are some women who attending every Shabbos morning, and a few more
on Shabbos mevorchin - but they are far from the majority. Maybe a few
more on YT and those who need it - always come for Yizkor.
I think this is more or less the standard in most charedi communities.
SBA
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From: Steven Oppenheimer <oppy49@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:49:24 -0400
Subject: Changing Minhagim
Martin Stern wrote about being distressed that an element in his shul is
attempting to change minhagim that have long standng in the shul. He
might wish to point out to that group the account of the Maharil who
writes that his daughter passed away on Yom Kippur as a result of his
changing a minhag of a shul he was visiting, albeit for what he thought
was a very good reason. He attributes his daughter's passing to his
changing the shul's custom. We see from this that doing away with
minhagim can have, R"L, tragic consequences.
The "Yeshivishe" crowd should be sensitive to this!
[A pdf of this account my be obtained by email request to the Moderator
or to Steven. Mod.]
Steven Oppenheimer, DMD
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:22:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kaddish After Aleinu
I'm believe David E. Cohen may be mixing cause and effect in his
discussion of "mandatory" kaddeshim after pesukim. Sections such as
Mizmor Shir and the Shir Shel Yom seem to have been added to the prayer
(or formally added) specifically so that there would be an opportunity
for Kaddish afterward, not the other way around.
In fact, the formal recitation of Aleinu probably does not predate the
Rama by very long, and may have been instituted for a similar reason. It
was recited informally (much as people say the Ani Maamins) for some
time before that; originally, of course, it was "only" part of Rosh
Hashana Musaf, which is where the two pesukim at the end come from.
Finally, I've been to many tefillot where Kaddish was said only after
the Shir Shel Yom, not Aleinu, particularly when there was no chiyuv.
Nachum Lamm
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:18:33 GMT
Subject: Kaddish After Aleinu
From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@...>
> The practical daily ramifications of this understanding of the Rema for
> contemporary shuls following the East European branch of Nusach Ashkenaz
> would seem to be that:
>
> 2. Whether or not mourners are present, one Kaddish should be recited
> at the end, not immediately after `Aleinu, but rather after the Shir
> shel Yom.
>
>I have never seen a shul that conducts itself in this way, though
Many yeshivos do so; after alenu there is no kadish, then they say the
yom (and ledavid if it's in elul) and one kadish after all of that.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Mark and Anne Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:01:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Kaddish and German Minhag
From: PM <phminden@...>
>Mark Goldin wrote:
>> This may or may not make the most halachic sense, but for today's
>> mourners allowing everyone to say kaddish makes much more sense. Many
>> come to shul, and make a point of arriving punctually, so they can say
>> every kaddish. Some are unable to act as sha"tz, and in any event, if
>> there are several chiyuvim in the community one may only get the
>> opportunity to be shat"tz infrequently. I would hazard a guess that
>> many mourners would not come regularly for very long if the German
>> minhag were the predominant one, and we would lose many a kiruv
>> opportunity.
>Yes. But we lose many a keirev opportunity by leaving most of the
>services in Hebrew, not shifting Shabbes to Sunday, why, even by
>prohibiting idols, if you will. I don't want to sound polemic, but my
>point is we might indeed get an estranged mourner to show up from time
>to time so he can say kaddesh, but we should be careful what we sell him
>as Toure or Judaism. You can't be implying that the more observant part
>of the community and certainly the rav know that kaddesh is not a prayer
>for the dead, it's not the central part of the service, that it doesn't
>make sense for several people to say it in chaos, that the number of
>kaddeishem is not to be increased on top of the seven daily ones (mostly
>said by the chazzen) and so on. That they know all this, but decide to
>fool the mourner for keirev purposes.
I'm surprised at your response. No-one is suggesting we pander, but
there is a clear expectation today that a mourner can walk into an
Orthodox shul almost anywhere and recite kaddish. There are rabbis and
gabaim that work to minimize the chaos (which I agree is upsetting) and
those who don't. There are also mourners who are refined and
knowledgeable enough to recite in unison and to stand together. So we
don't have to go from one extreme to another. A group of mourners
reciting together at the right times seems to me to be a fine and
appropriate minhag.
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From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:18:29 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Minhagim
I sympathize with the posting re: new members trying to obliterate, oust
the established minhagim of the shul -- unfortunately, another example
of frum Jews behaving badly. Unfortunately many of us can recall
examples of this.
Rather than dig into the dirt pile, let me retell a contrasting story
that I heard from Rabbi Abraham Levene (of Lower Merion Synagogue.)
When his father retired to Israel, the congregation there consisted of
Jews from many different parts of Europe (the holy remnants of European
Jewry - if you want to be poetic.) They worked out a system by which
each shaliach tzibor davened the nusach that he had grown up with - thus
(in my words) an inclusive "rainbow" minhag.
Carl
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From: <areivim@...> (SBA)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:28:20 +1000
Subject: Re: Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?
> From: Abbi Adest <>
> SBA-
> Since you acknowledged in your last post that rabbonim have permitted
> women to learn in the Beis Yaakov system, it still mystifies me as to
> why you consider women learning on leil Shavuot to be such a shanda. Did
> these rabbonim only permit learning in daylight? Is there something
> about learning by moonlight that crosses some invisible line of
> propriety?
Not shanda, but not necessary and not done by our ancestors and not
mentioned in any sifrei halocho or minhag.
> Here in Yerushalayim, there were many wonderful shiurim taking place
> for men, women and teenagers. I can't see how this was at all harmful
> to anybody individually or as a community. There were actually shiurim
> for women taught by women!
No doubt there were. And here in Melbourne where I live [and where
Shovuos night is VERY long] the Mizrachi and Chabad also had shiurim
attended by women all night.
Which brings me to another pet topic - the lack of Simchas and Oneg YT
caused by staying up for such a l-o-n-g night. I personally don't - and
explain it by saying that Oneg YT is a mitzvas asei - which I cannot
claim to be mekayem by forcing myself to stay awake all night [and then
messing up the next day as well..]
> As for your red herring question about tefillin and mourning, I will
> assume that, Thank God, you have both of your parents still living and
> haven't had to deal with the crushing pain of losing a loved one.
Sadly you are wrong. Both my parents are no longer be'almo hadein.
> I will also assume that you've never personally spoken to any of the
> sincerely pious women who just want to perform a mitzvah that also,
> simultaneously, helps to alleviate this pain. Otherwise, I'm sure you
> would automatically know that this analogy is exceedingly
> inappropriate.
I am unsure what you are saying. You DO approve of women donning tefilin
if they wish to?
And, BTW, I know many pious women who have lost a loved one, but haven't
turned to 'male mitzvos' to alleviate their pain.
SBA
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:28:02 -0400
Subject: RE: Women and Torah Study
>From: SBA <sba@...>
>AIUI the horo'as shaah was mainly because girls began studying many
>other subjects anyway, thus teaching them Torah to counter the influence
>of some of those studies was found necessary.
>
>That situation is still around.
SBA is correct, but his statement fails to convey the urgency of the
situation faced by Yiddishkeit at the turn of the 19-20th century. Girls
in Poland(!) were receiving secular schooling with no comparable
training in Yiddishkeit. Under the circumstances, it struck Sarah
Schenirer that within a very few years Judaism would be finished, no
matter how many boys went to yeshiva.
This situation led to her determination to organize the girls schools
which she named Bais Yaakov. From her biography:
"Her main difficulty came not from the opposition of the secularists,
but from the indifference in Orthodox circles. How was she, a girl, to
convince learned Rabbis and Chassidic Rebbis that girls also need a
Cheder? The boys would all attend Cheder and yeshivah, while girls would
go to public school at least until the seventh grade, as required by
law. There were other Jewish schools, but they were all coeducational,
and often antireligious - such as the Zionist, Hebrew-speaking Tarbus
schools, where the Torah was nothing more than a "history book." The
"Cheder Mesukan" was a progressive school - not antireligious, but with
no commitment to Torah. True, the homes then were full of Yiddishkeit,
where Shabbos and Kashrus were a tangible presence. But under the
pressures of earning a living, parents often neglected their children,
especially their daughters. Hence her cry, "Girls also need yeshivos!"
from: http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/schenirer.html
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End of Volume 52 Issue 39
