Volume 52 Number 51
                    Produced: Mon Jul 17 23:06:47 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aveil Baal Tefilah Yom Kippur Mincha
         [Orrin Tilevitz]
Extreme (?) View on Intermarriage
Korban Mincha (2)
         [Gershon Dubin, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Natural Disasters and Rabbinic expalnations
         [Baruch C. Cohen]
R. Ovadiah Yosef--Spelling
         [Harvey Lieber]
Simchas Yom Tov
text of ketuba--was naming of children getting converted
         [Orrin Tilevitz]
Two Days of Yom Kippur (3)
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Richard Fiedler, Richard Fiedler]
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Yom Kippur
         [Ben Katz]


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Aveil Baal Tefilah Yom Kippur Mincha

> Searching for heter for  a 12 month avel who has been davening Yom
> Kippur Mincha for a number of years to do so during his avelus. Need
> sources.

 Who says there is an issur?  See Greenwald, Kol Bo al Aveilut p. 288,
quoting Noda Beyehuda as holding that the practice of forbidding aveilim
from acting as shelichei tzibur from Rosh Chodesh Elul to Yom Kippur is
a "minhag ta'ut", and "even on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, there is no
issur, merely a minhag".  See also p. 289, citing Binyan Olam as holding
that even on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "im ein acheir ragil kamohu .
 . . mutar lo lehitpaleil" (if there is nobody as used to doing it as he,
it is permissible for him to lead the prayers).


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:47:45 +1000
Subject: Extreme (?) View on Intermarriage

From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
"SBA" writes, in part:
>>Marrying out and having a non-Jewish wife and childen and then deciding
>>to return - is a VERY complicated matter. Thus marrying out usually
>>means a complete cutting off from Judaism and Jews.
> I find myself wondering in what century the second sentence was written. 
> Do you really believe this?  Are you not counting as "Judaism" or "Jews"
> all of the many, many congregations with intermarried families?

No.  Until recently (and often even these days) parents sit shiva after
a child that married out RL.

>It is one thing to talk about how people should marry other Jews for
>myriad reasons.  But rhetoric such as the above "complete cutting off
>from Judaism" is pretty pointless and inaccurate, not to mention

Aderaba. It should be drummed into all - especially the young - that
marrying out is the last stop before the end of the Judaism line.



From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:11:00 GMT
Subject: Korban Mincha

From: Robert Schoenfeld <frank_james@...>

> This brings up an interesting question not answered in the Mishah or
> Gemmorrah, How were korbans done before the building of the first Bas
> HaMigdosh and between the destruction of the two Bas Ha Migdoshes?

It is definitely discussed, in Zevachim, chapter 14, mishna 4-8 and in
the Gemara thereon, 117b.

>From the construction of the Mishkan until the entry into the land of
Israel, full service as would in the future be conducted in the Beis
Hamikdash.  Bamos (singular, bamah, "backyard" altars) not permitted.

>From the entry into Israel until the construction of the quasi-Beis
Hamikdash at Shilo, bamos were permitted to be used, for voluntary
sacrifices only (i.e. no sin-offerings and the like).

>From the construction of Shilo until its destruction, no bamos were to
be used.

Once Shilo was destroyed, the situation reverted to status quo ante and
backyard bamos were permitted.  When the beis hamikdash was built, bamos
were forbidden and never again permitted.

There is some discussion of what the situation was during the period
between the Batei Mikdosh; the Gemara in Megila seems to say that
sacrifices could be brought at the location of the altar even without
the building of the Beis Hamikdosh.

Also discussed are the finer points of which sacrifices could or could
not be brought on a bama.


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Korban Mincha

> From: Robert Schoenfeld <frank_james@...>
> This brings up an interesting question not answered in the Mishah or
> Gemmorrah, How were korbans done before the building of the first Bas
> Ha Migdosh and between the destruction of the two Bas Ha Migdoshes?

Before the building of the first Beit Hamikdash, after the destruction
of the mishkan at Shilo, a person was allowed to bring korbonos on a
bama (private altar).  There also existed the public bama used by the
community as we see in Shemuel.  After the building of the first beit
Hamikdash, bamos became forbidden, but people would not give them up.
That is why they had the problem of people bringing "illegal" korbonos
(to Hashem) on a private altar.  After the destruction of the first Beit
hamikdash, the rule was the same as today.  THus, no korbonos could have
been brought until the mizbeach was rebuilt on Har Habayis.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water


From: <Azqbng@...> (Baruch C. Cohen)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:36:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Natural Disasters and Rabbinic expalnations

The Gemorah in Berachos says: "If a person sees that yissurim befall
him, he should examine his deeds. If he inspected them but found nothing
wrong, he should attribute them to bittul torah." Rashi explains that
the words "but found nothing wrong" indicate that he found no sin that
would warrant this punishment. Since we know that Hashem punishes mida
keneged mida, a person should find the sin that matches and warrants the
punishment he received. The Chazon Ish ruled that the above was only
said "Concerning events in the time of the Gemorah, but that in our era,
we are not worthy of conducting this type of self-examination. On the
contrary, a person might arrive at an incorrect conclusion."

Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
Los Angeles, CA


From: Harvey Lieber <tlieber@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:35:32 -0400
Subject: Re: R. Ovadiah Yosef--Spelling

In regard to the heh at the end of a word, as to whether it should be
transliterated with an "h", not too many follow the YeshivaH of
Flatbush; rather it is almost always as in Yeshiva University.

Tsvi Lieber


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:56:26 +1000
Subject: Re: Simchas Yom Tov

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
>> the lack of Simchas and Oneg YT caused by staying up for such a
>> l-o-n-g night.  I personally don't - and explain it by saying that
>> Oneg YT is a mitzvas asei - which I cannot claim to be mekayem by
>> forcing myself to stay awake all night [and then messing up the next
>> day as well..] SBA
> Where did you get your definition of "Simchas and Oneg YT?"  Too often
> we use totally secular and western/modern definitions, which are far
> removed from the halachik Hebrew

My definition is that which, AFAIK, is followed by all Jews and
according to the Shulchan Aruch.

Chazal tell us that Yom Tov is 'chetzyo laHashem and cheztyo Lochem'.
Which makes it pretty clear that we have a 50/50 arrangement here.

Where did you get YOUR definition? In fact what IS your definition?

> "Simchas and Oneg YT" have nothing to with having a good time, being
> well-rested and all that.

Huh??  Oneg Shabbos and YT are ALL about that.  'Shinnah beShabbos
Taanug', etc etc.

Have a look at the Shabbos zemiros, eg "Lehisaneg besaanugim'.
(You really don't know what you are missing...)



From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 07:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: text of ketuba--was naming of children getting converted

Rabbi Meir Wise writes:

> I was taught that in the case of a nine month pregnant bride who has
> never been married before the text is still betulta ! The rabbi at that
> point looks into the ketuba and nowhere else!!!

 Maybe.  The basic question is whether she is entitled to 100 or 200
zuz.  I checked with my rav, a well-known mesader gittin.  He first
quoted the Kitzur Nachalat Shiva, which brings two opinions ("yesh
omrim") for what she's called in the ketuba: either nothing, i.e., you'd
just set out her name, or "beulta" The conflicting rationales are "gnai
hu lehazkir" - mentioning her pregnancy is not nice - or "kriseha bein
shineha" - her stomach is between her teeth, i.e., it's obvious so why
try to hide it.  According to either opinion, though, she'd be entitled
to only 100 zuz, and that number would be read aloud.  He then said that
he had "once heard" someone say that if the bride is pregnant by the
groom, she'd be entitled to 200 zuz and be called "betulta" because she
is "his betula".  My rav called that opinion a "kvetch".


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 09:06:29 EDT
Subject: Two Days of Yom Kippur

Richard Fiedler (MJv52n47) asks:

> Out side of Israel why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

Two fast answers come to mind:

Ve-Chai Bahem veLo sheyamut ba-Hem. The practice of Judaism is so that
we could live following the mitzvot - and not die from them. Some people
will die from two days fast. For this very reason come the second
reason.  Ein gozrin gzeira al haTzibbur shein hatzibur yachol la-amod
bah. No decree should be imposed on public which the public cannot

There was one time that a dispute over when was Yom Kippur in Japan, as
there was a machloket on the dateline. Rav Herzog and his Beit Din of 23
ruled one way, and the Chazon Ish another day. We discussed it here on
MailJewish. The community was faced with 2 days of Yom Kippur, one
according to each shita. Many people escape from there before Yom Kippur
to avoid the issue.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:29:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Two Days of Yom Kippur

Thank you for your reply.  But your two fast answers are in conflict
with each other.

Furthermore the act of not fasting on Yom Kippur has some pretty harsh
penalties, so if there is doubt as to which really is Yom Kippur must we
not fast both days?  No doubt one would be uncomfortable with this but
it is doable.

Lastly and most important we have a Yerushalmi telling us it that some
people in Bavel indeed did fast for two days.

Richard Fiedler

From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Two Days of Yom Kippur

Rethinking what was said I think there no relation with the problem
regarding the dateline and my question. The dateline problem is not a
suffik in the date of Yom Kippur but rather a suffik in the psak, a
problem in asking a rabbi. I am sure there were many reasons to want to
get out of Japan and on to the western world.

But my question remains because I am sure that if the real choice was a
two day fast or aliyah to Israel we would not see a dramatic rise in the
Israeli population.

There are people for whom a one day fast is a medical problem and so
there would be people for whom a two day fast would be a problem.  But
more important where are the sources that discussed this problem and
gave a blanket exemption?


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:47:56 -0400
Subject: Yisro-kel

>And pronounce names such as "Yerachme-kayl" lest they transgress --

Reminds me of an old Jerusalem joke about the way children in J'lem are
known for their sharpness, while children in Bnei Brak are known for

On a first meeting, the shy Yerushalmi boy asks his prospective mate,
"Aich Korim Lach?" (What's your name?).

She responds "Bas-kah", (instead of the usual pronounciation, Batya,
simultaneously using old Hebrew and the -kah suffix to avoid the Holy
name and thus proving how frum she is.. ) She then asks him, "ulecha
aich korim?"  (And what's your name?)

He immediately shoots back with "Eli-kaku", instead of Eliahu, showing
how silly this whole thing is.

Yossi Ginzberg
I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself, forgive me!


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 16:04:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

>From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
>Out side of Israel why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

         Because fasting 2 days was too difficult

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.


End of Volume 52 Issue 51