Volume 52 Number 53
                    Produced: Tue Jul 18  6:48:52 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

The Corned-Beef Sandwich that got away
         [Leah S. Gordon]
         [David Curwin]
Dalet vs. Daled  - an addendum
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Friday Night Kaddish
         [Naftali Olivestone]
Interesting Halachic Question
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Korban Mincha
         [David Charlap]
Looking for some help with Macintosh
         [Gershon Dubin]
nun bau Dein Temple shierer
         [Jacob Sasson]
R' Fred Dweck
         [Jacob Sasson]
         [Carl Singer]
Yom Kippur (2)
         [David Charlap, <chips@...>]


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 04:57:27 -0700
Subject: The Corned-Beef Sandwich that got away

In the category of kosher stories and "be careful what you wish for":

My father was visiting China for an extended business trip, and he was
eating only fruits and vegetables, along with whatever non-perishables
he had packed to bring with him.  (Did you know that 'vegetable' is an
ancient Native American word for "look it up in the O.E.D. before
perpetuating linguistic myths on mailing lists"?)

Anyway, his hosts wanted him to be able to experience "Peiking Duck" in
the traditional style, but he told them that he couldn't eat it.
Somehow it came out that in fact ducks can be kosher, but they have to
be killed a certain way etc.  So his hosts said, "Ok, we'll give you a
live duck; you do whatever you need to do, and then give it back to us
and we'll prepare it."

Needless to say, my father was grateful but declined their offer....

Leah S. R. Gordon


From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:27:31 +0300
Subject: Dalet

Philologos has a column here about dalet/daled:

And I wrote about the letter in general here:

David Curwin
Balashon - Hebrew Language Detective


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:02:26 EDT
Subject: Dalet vs. Daled  - an addendum

I have written earlier this week that all the evidence suggest that only
Dalet is correct, and the few Daled uses are probably coming from the

I looked further and found (so far) one use of Daled, prior to Yiddish
in the "Midrash Alpha Beita deRabbi Akiba" (Reprinted in Bet ha-Midrash,
Adolph Jellinek, III, p. 22). This book is known also by the name Otiyot
deRabbi Akiba. This book was written about a 1000 years ago, but is
based on earlier sources.

For the fourth letter of the Hebrew alphabet the book gives three
midrashic interpretations:

1. Dale"t from d"l
2. Davar acher DALED  (i.e., Another explanation for DALED)
3. Davar acher mipnei mah dale"t  (i.e., Another explanation: why DALET?)

Daled in number (2) above is not a typo as the midrash brings it as an
abbreviation of three words, starting with D, L and D.

This suggest to me that DALED as an alternative spelling and
pronunciation for the fourth letter preceded the Yiddish. Such an
earlier midrashic source makes it a correct alternative spelling.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Naftali Olivestone <naftali@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:26:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Friday Night Kaddish

> ...it was also stressed that the now-widespread custom of singing the
> Friday night half-kaddish to the same melody as the rest of maariv is
> not authentic or correct nusah.

With regard to the question of nusach for the Kaddish before the Ma'ariv
amidoh on Friday night, does anyone know why the nusach should suddenly
shift at that point?  In other words, why not maintain the nusach from
the rest of Ma'ariv?  It would seem like a natural continuation of the
rest of the t'filloh.

Having operated on that exact assumption for many years, it would
regularly bother me when a ba'al t'filloh would shift away from the
nusach to that point.  Interestingly enough, the transition from however
one recites "V'shomru" (either in the classic nusach or the increasingly
popular practice of singing it to the tune of Shlomo Carlebach's
"Mimkomcho") back to the Ma'ariv nusach is quite a difficult one.  Not
wishing to make the same "error" that I had so often heard, I actually
rehearsed this transition to the point that I had mastered it as a

Taking the question a step further, I am interested to determine the
correct nusach for this same Kaddish on Yom Tov nights.  Is this Kaddish
to be recited in the same nusach as the rest of the Ma'ariv for Yom Tov
night, or is there another nusach to use (as seemingly on Friday night)?
And furthermore, what is the correct manner with which to end this
Kaddish?  I have often heard the Kaddish ended in the manner of the Yom
Tov morning davening (as one would end the b'rochos in the Shacharis and
Musaf Chazoros HaShatz).  Is that correct?  Having assumed that this
kaddish should maintain the Nusach of the rest of the Yom Tov night
Ma'ariv, I have always ended it in the same manner as the Borchu of that

Tangentially, I recall having heard Cantor Goffin once discuss the
correct nusach for Yom Tov Minchoh (Ashrei, Uvo L'yzion, etc. until the
Amidoh).  If memory serves, he said that the Nusach should be that of
chol, rather than that of Shabbos.  This is another common error I have
heard ba'alei t'filloh make.  Keeping to the topic at hand, I would
assume that the Kaddish after the chazoras hashatz for this Minchoh
would again be recited in the nusach of chol, but I do not recall
whether or not this is in fact the case.

Naftali Olivestone


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:35:23 +0300
Subject: Interesting Halachic Question

I wonder if anyone has been confronted with a similar situation and
received a halachic ruling.

Last night, the night of Shiva Asar BeTammuz, we flew out from Prague at
1 a.m. and landed in Israel at about 5:30 a.m., a 3.5 hour flight as
Israeli time is an hour ahead of Czech time.

Now, the time until which one may eat before dawn is about 2:30 a.m. in
Prague and about 4:20 a.m. in Israel.

The question then, is until what time may one eat while on the plane?

Shmuel Himelstein


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:42:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Korban Mincha

Robert Schoenfeld wrote:
> This brings up an interesting question not answered in the Mishah or
> Gemmorrah, How were korbans done before the building of the first Bas
> Ha Migdosh and between the destruction of the two Bas Ha Migdoshes?

Before the construction of the first Temple, the sacrifices were brought
in the Mishkan - just as they were brought while Moses was leading the
Jews through the desert.

It is my understanding that no sacrifices were brought during the time
between the first and second Temples.

-- David


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:50:47 GMT
Subject: Looking for some help with Macintosh

A friend has a Word file on a Macintosh vintage 1985 or so and needs to
retrieve the file.  It's on a floppy so if she can access a Mac of that
age or somewhat newer with Word loaded, she can convert it to Windows
for further use.  Please reply offlist.  Thank you.



From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:38:28 +1000
Subject: nun bau Dein Temple shierer

From: Andy Goldfinger
> By the way, the Bostoner Rebbe also has a minhag of finishing the Pesach
> Seder with Adir Hu sung in German.  I know that this is a very common
> minhag among German Jews, and I believe that there are some who give a
> greeting after Pesach Maariv of "bauen Sie gut," which means (I believe)
> "build well" and is a reference to the refrain (nun bau Dein Temple
> shierer -- build Your temple quickly)

Also a minhag with many Hungarian Oberlender.
AFAIK the German version is mentioned in (or compiled by?) the Shelah.

Can a German speaker confirm that 'shierer' (the Yiddish translated
Hagados spell 'shirah' - as in 'Shirah chadosho') - indeed means



From: Jacob Sasson <jacobsasson@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:04:31 -0400
Subject: RE: PETA

>Many people are not aware of this:
>The term "vegetarian" is actually an American Indian word.
>It means:"poor hunter."

I think it comes from the latin "vegetus." 

Jacob Sasson


From: Jacob Sasson <jacobsasson@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:24:52 -0400
Subject: RE: R' Fred Dweck

A few weeks ago I announced the passing of list member R' Fred Dweck
A"H.  What was most unique about Fred Dweck A"H was his special
spiritual connection to Hashem. The pasuk says, "Sadik be'emunato
yehyeh" The righteous will live by his faith. Fred did not live by
faith; he lived by knowledge. He had knowledge of Hashem, knowledge of
Torah, and knowledge of the presence of those around him. As aware as he
was of his own existence was how sure he was of the presence of Hashem.

When death came there was never a glimmer of fear, never a glimmer of
doubt.  He had completely accepted that whatever Hashem's will was,
would be just fine with him.

Healer, father, husband, mentor, rabbi, teacher, mystic, friend,
brother, and son.  This was Fred Dweck.

Jacob Sasson


From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:12:02 -0400
Subject: Tikkun

> The tikkun for the Holocaust is clearly the easiest. The establishment
> of the State of Israel, in its current form, occurred by means of and
> as a consequences of a United Nations vote.  It seems pretty clear
> that the existence of the majority who voted in favour had to do with
> the countries of the world being guilted into it, on the basis of the
> Holocaust.  The nations of the world pretty clearly, at that time,
> voted for the State of Israel as a tikkun for their guilt over the
> Holocaust.  I don't think that takes any great leap of faith.

I wanted to add a sidebar to the thoughtful presentation from Chana
Luntz in #48.

Some people consider history a series of accidents or coincidences - a
random world.  Others say everything as clearly bashert and then attempt
to attribute or link (correctly or incorrectly) cause and effect to all
situations.  And there is a vast ocean in between these extremes.  And
other vectors also exist.

Consider this vignette -- Eddie Jacobson, Harry S Truman's friend (and
partner in a failed haberdashery), had remarkable access to the
President of the United States and was able to get an audience for Chaim
Weissman at a most crucial point in time.

The story as detailed in one of the Truman biographies has Mr. Jacobson
coming to see the President, having been forwarned not to discuss
Israel.  Eddie sat down without a word and began crying.  Harry said,
"Eddie, you S.O.B. you promised you were not going to talk about
Israel."  True or embellished or apocraphyl it's still a great story.

How far do we dig?  Was it coincidence that the two were partners and
friends?  Do we drill further and look to President Truman's election as
VP and then President?

How does our belief color our view of this story / situation?



From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:49:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

Richard Fiedler wrote:
> Out side of Israel why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

Could you survive a 48 hour fast?  Our sages weren't fools - they would
not create a law that would be physically impossible for most of the
population to keep.

WRT the uncertainty of dates, that is not the case today, and has not
been the case for quite some time.  We keep two day of Yom Tov out of
memory of the time when it was necessary, and because the practice has
become a national tradition.

Just like it is permitted to violate most halachot to save a life, it is
clearly permitted to violate a minhag to avoid jeopardizing one's

-- David

From: <chips@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:12:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

> Out side of Israel why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

	Because it would make life way too difficult. The only places
where 2 days of Yom Kippur are kept in some sort of fashion are some
places located 90-180 degrees east of Yerushalyim due to the doubt of
where the halachic date line is.


End of Volume 52 Issue 53